While a quite accurate portrayal of the relationship between Russia and Ukraine, a lot of key points have been left out.
Ukraine has been under the "boot" of the Russians, on and off for the past 300 years. It was their language that was outlawed, their religion, their way of life by the likes of the Russian dictator Stalin between 1920 and 1950's when he finally passed away. No one wanted it that way, but maniacs have a way of sticking around way too long.
Faced with a Holodomor in the 1930's by way of Stalin's "collectivization" plan, Ukraine suffered pretty brutally. Estimates of between 6-8 million died of starvation. Not of bullets, being gassed or shot. Not having enough food to eat. I can't imagine a slower and more painful death. Not to mention the horror stories (cannibalism) from the people who survived.
When the 2nd World War came, there were very few people amongst the Ukrainians that didn't welcome a "change in scenery" as the jackboots rolled over Stalin's armies pushing them out. While at first hailed as liberators, the Germans were quick to show they weren't a much better solution than the old one that had been shown the door.
With Russian knives at their throats and German machine guns at their backs, Ukrainians did what they do best. They survived. Some joined the Germans and fought against an evil that had destroyed their families in the 30's. Others, with shorter memories, and a desire to live, joined the Russians as they used their own people as meat shields and drove the Krauts back to the Fatherland.
In the end, a "cold war" emerged as the new bosses of Russia, simply kept things status quo after Stalin died. Ukraine was a separate republic on paper, but it wasn't allowed to govern itself. All commands came from Moscow. People weren't allowed to leave the country, let alone travel abroad. My mom, was a lucky one getting a 1 in million visa to leave that country to come to Canada in 1960 at the height of the cold war.
While the languages are similar (roots in slavic or "slave" language), customs, religion etc are today a bit different. History of the two nations, is inexorably tied at the hip. Which came first? Ukraine or Russia? In the end, their histories are one and the same, Russia having been formed from ex-pat Kievan-Rus peoples. If you check Wikipedia, both nations lay claim to Kievan-Rus history. From the 10th century onwards, the divisions become murky at best.
Do I support the war? Absolutely not.
The simplest thing to save lives would have been to let Putin roll in to Kiev. Do what he thought militarily and politically was right. Would everyone have agreed?
Of course not.
Would we have lost thousands of lives and displaced upwards of 2 million people?
Absolutely not.
So while we hail Zelensky as a savior, the only one he is really saving, is the shareholders of the military industrial complex.
The people of Ukraine would have lived on, tended to their gardens, lived their lives, got to see their grandkids grow up and have children of their own.
Great overview. You had me until your last comments about not supporting the war. I'm not saying you are wrong. I just question it. White's comments below make sense except for the gratuitous insult at the end. The insult is not demeaning to you, it actually demeans him for expressing it.
Questioning is a good thing. That is what separates us from animals. The ability to reason. And use tools, to make things, rather than destroy them.
Ukraine was caught in no man's land. Not a member of NATO and wishing to distance itself from mother Russia, it was left to fend for itself. The current president was lauded for standing up to a bully. But at an enormous expense.
His own people.
War is like that. It doesn't care about collateral damage. It levels entire cities with its bombs, deprives entire generations of fathers and brothers. It doesn't care about borders. It consumes all.
One day, we will get past fighting each other.
Until then, the people remaining will have land mines littering their fields, rockets streaming overhead, worries about whether their crops are going to make it to harvest or be obliterated by a column of tanks.
We have relatives that have lost everything in the south of Ukraine. Including family.
All for someone trying to keep a line on a map intact.
We will only get past fighting each other when individual rights and free markets are accepted by all. As far as the war between Ukraine and Russia, if you are saying that there would be no difference to the people of Ukraine if they were ruled by their present government or by Russia, then I would agree with you. On the other hand, if it would be much worse, then it is worth fighting despite the costs. Yes, war is sickening and horrible, but if you just roll over and do nothing, then you are a slave. It's a matter of degree, I suppose. It depends on your present situation and what you might wind up with.
the people of Ukraine live in a democracy which they enjoy. That is why they are fighting. They do not wish to be subsumed by a madman running a kleptocracy
To say "The simplest thing to save lives would have been to let Putin roll in to Kiev. Do what he thought militarily and politically was right. " Why on earth should a democratic country allow a neighbour to invade it & take it over because in the distant past they were united.
Rather like Mexico suddenly demanding New Mexico back as their sovereign territory because in the distant past they were united .
If you're fighting for a border, and are willing to follow anyone into certain death, then by all means. Fight on.
If you're fighting for your life, with your back to the wall, you do what you have to. Pick up a rifle and join the fray.
Or if you're like the 2 million or so that left the country since the beginnings of the war, you leave, because you understand that your life and that of your families are much more precious than fighting for a border.
Or which language they should be speaking at the end of the day.
Out of pure ignorance and stupidity, please share with us how your parents/grandparents came to be where you are now? Was it because they landed in a helicopter, took over some land (by force) and settled into their peaceful lives?
Mine came here to run away from oppression and war. To live on and to see their children grow up and live their lives out.
Without war.
Its how the species and lineages survive. You sidestep the atrocities, the dick swinging wars and battles that have little or nothing to do with your family surviving.
Ukraine in its entire existence has been a sovereign nation for about 20 years. It was always a vassal state. The current government was recognized as the most corrupt in the world. The only reason Zelensky and company want to fight on is to secure their golden egg laying goose. The reason USA is involved is quite simple, Joe had not interesting GW. Bushes war one which secured his reelection. Biden on the other hand would be facing the firing squad if Russia gained control of Ukraine and published the communications between Ukraine and the Biden crime family.
If Ukraine's a democracy, Andrew, I'll eat my hat and ,in fact, it probably fits the description of a kleptocracy as least as well as Russia - or, for that matter, the US.
The poor Ukrainian people have been royally screwed by pretty much everybody. At the very least, tens of thousands - probably hundreds of thousands - dead and maimed, millions displaced and all for a war they haven't got a snowballs chance in hell of winning. All so the west could degrade Russia's military capabilities!! Great work NATO, aka the US, and the little sock puppet. At least it's pretty much guaranteed the end of a unipolar world dominated by one hegemony, so there's that
So true Starboard! And we all know Putin will go on, just as the democratic cult of insanity goes on in America.
The cult has shown much corruption, evil and insanity since Obama was placed in office, followed by Trump and ending with another banana republic election with Biden.
We all know its 100% about the trillions distributed to all the scum involved. Ukraine is just another cash faucet for the true corruptors...And you know we can't fix stupid, nor evil...
I'm so glad that none of you arm chair generals have any real knowledge of events so you just make it up to suit your prejudice .. thank God that their are still some very good intelligent people sitting in East Kilbride Learmoth & the GAP that don't have to listen to your BS ..
Yes Altschule, at our age we can only be arm chair warriors, but it sounds like you have had a few too many sips of the red devil to help create your lost thoughts. Been there and continue to do that, cause sometimes it helps numb the pain, but try not to burn too many of the few brain cells we have left 🤔. No fantasy nor untruths here, just fact and reality. Wake up mate, as the truth will set you free 🙏
yes Steve the "truth" will set us free but you forgot the 'First' good part of this parable "Be Still and Know and the truth and set you free" but you've got to learn to shut off your own inner "Dialogue" Roy Masters KTYM 1962 Rabbi and Minister for over 60 years of the Foundation of human understanding .. still going! don't let UKR refugees near computers!
there was no written agreement about eastern Europe not aligning with NATO. It was discussed in negotiations with Stalin, but he signed the agreement WITHOUT it.
Stalin was more evil than Putin, but Putin has a few more years to go if his generals allow hi to live
Stalin was a bit before my time. I was thinking more about James Baker and his hollow-yet-highly publicized assurances to Gorby that NATO would not move "one inch" East. This was just before the decade where they allowed 12-14 countries to join, all closer to Russia than the NATO boundary was when he made the statement. However, if you were attempting to justify through equivocation the current ignorant insanity our "government" is conducting - well done.
PS - In my previous comment I should have made clear that the repugnicants are equally despicable when it comes to the subject at hand.
PPS - Remember kids - Orange Man Bad, but Putin Man Worse. At least until election season gets into full swing, then your betters will release the proper update to your outrage software.
PPPS - BTW, if you're worried about the "looming government shutdown", relax. It has been decided that the paychecks and pension contributions for ALL Ukrainian "government" employees that WE have been paying at 100% (only for the last 10 months or so) are NOT to be delayed in any way. Alas - we are a Nation of suckers, sheep and degenerates...
Edge you are well and truly 'OFF the EDGE' mate where in the hell do you get your history of facts .. you have NO idea how much of your life was FUC*ED up by Stalin Hitler El Dolce .. go to ancestry.com and check out your precious lineage and discover what a mixed bag of mental genetics you've inherited !
well Edge you were neither their nor had any knowledge of what transpired in 8 years of meetings prior to Putin spitting the dummy .. for once the US has the best military in Europe who never asked for US troops like every other conflict of the last 60 years, they just wanted weapons instead of pitch forks which they used in many previous invasions ..
We Americans are all about self-determination, until it disagrees or upsets our political and diplomatic aims. Russian ethnics in eastern Ukraine want closer ties to Russia? How could such a thing be? Forget THAT. Next thing you know, we have the Ukraine mess and another huge win for the military-industrial complex and the rogue bureaucracy, the CIA. Connected politicians have run to get in on the skim. If collapse is the only way out of this, bring it on. Best always. PM
Correct, but everything the US does IS about the US$$$. And what is "democratic Ukraine", anyway? Half of that "country" wants out from under the "democracy" that was forced on them in 2014! WHY is western Ukraine's western sovereignty sacrosanct, and the Donbas' right to self-determination is BS? Well, because "we" say so, right? Best always. PM
it's got nothing to with with $$$fu**** US dllrs ! just send the fuc*** amo tanks missiles planes and we'll show you how to win a war you bunch of dickheads who have not won a war in 78 yrs ! sorry I have some very angry refugees staying with me .. I will not let them read these "intelligent" comments in future ..
"Not let them read" Isn't that the whole point of the discussion? This "letting" business, this "blessing- and permission-giving" business? Not sure I'm getting your point. Best always. PM
The point is Altschule (who I DO respect) leans to the left and thus is triggered to varying degrees by mere words that don't align with his indoctrination. As a symptom of this "progressive" disease, he feels the need to guard the gates so nobody else is exposed to ideas that differ from his narrative.
While at first I thought that it was a great idea to fight back, the toll on the populace, the people, the children is too much. All the neighboring countries love the fact that all the bombs that are being dropped are being dropped on Ukraine. And not on their country. But it didn't need to happen. A crazed idiot invades. Another decides its time to take a stand. And have millions suffer for that decision.
While people the world over may be saying, "Good they stood up to the bully," millions of displaced (and now dead or disfigured) people are going, "Was fighting over a border really worth it?"
NO we should never have let him get into power in the first place but the bunch of pussies running the DOD at the time were that same ilk that cost us every war since 1945 ..
Are you really using the word "democratic" as a descriptor for current Ukraine? The same Ukraine where your boytoy Z has jailed dissident and religious leaders, shut down any opposition media and suspended elections??
Since you seem to have a thing for personal insults, I'd just like to point out that judging by your posts, you ain't the sharpest crayon in the box...
SE: Go back and read some of your comments. They are full of personal insults. You must have a very short memory ( I'm being nice). Maybe you are Not the sharpest crayon in the box! You and Clem make a great pair.
Niger and the rest of the West to East Africa belt currently experiencing political upheaval is a resource rich area which the Global South - Russia, China, et al, is taking from the Western incumbent powers. The battle is over minerals, uranium, rare earths, etc. Our foreign policy is now, and has for decades been, run by corrupt imbeciles.
you somehow managed to by-pass as the main reason for the current Russian SOP due to the UkeNazi's repeated artillery bombing, and reported murder of 14,000 people of Russian heritage, and culture citizens of the Ukraine break-away Provinces, since 2014. Every aspect of their entire Centuries long Russian, language, heritage and culture was being repressed and purposefully erradicated by the corrupted Ukrainian gov't lackeys, via the western ZOGs, (including NATO, handlers
Remember, prior to 2014, there weren't any artillery shells dropping on either side. A rogue army out of nowhere (where do ordinary citizens get a hold of Russian military equipment, in Ukraine?) decides to break away from Ukraine? I somehow don't think so. It was more likely a simple invasion under the guise of a province "breaking away."
And maybe they kept lobbing shells because the other side was doing the same? I don't know of any artillery exchanges where it was only a single side lobbing shells, while the other sat quietly and counted all the ordinance flying overhead. They would usually return fire. Or leave. Or attack.
Maybe they're doing it because, it's hard to forget what the Russians did to Ukrainians in 1930-32, when "supposedly" 6-8 million of them died from starvation.
After that collectivization plan was over, there was a lot of territory left unpopulated. So, Stalin simply uprooted thousands of Russians and placed them in un-populated areas of "collectivised" Ukraine.
Luckily for the Ukrainians, the western part of Ukraine had been annexed by Poland after WWI and "collectivisation" spared the brunt of the population.
Could it be that today's Ukrainians, including Zelensky remember the Holodomor and don't want the Russkies to do it to them again?
Report by the UN observers.....also reported were the multiple bioweapons laboratory. Check out the work of Scott Ritter, former intelligence officer and MD inspector, now anti-war activist for clear picture of what is going own. Zenenskey has closed the churches, closed the free press, arrested clergy, and anyone else the comedian did not like. Haas multiple homes around the world purchased by the good ole CIA/USA and sweet Victoria Uhland who never saw war she did not like. Bring our boys home!
I believe that the Israelis use the word "holocaust" for WW2 purge by certain elements of the Nazi regime.
Holodomor comes from the root Ukrainian word "holod" or "hunger" in English. The "omor" part of the word, refers to an "event" in the past worthy of remembering.
Your assertion that somehow the regular citizens in the Donbass had the means, trained personnel and organization to actually return the deadly artillery fire that the rest of Ukraine rained down on them for over 10 years is complete propaganda copium. Do you have any verified sources to back up that ridiculous statement?
You're saying that there was absolutely no Russian military presence in the Donbas region for the last 10 years?
Why in the world would Ukrainians simply lob shells into an area that was devoid of a Russian defender? Why not walk right in and take it back instead?
Well, if you consider all the verified rapes, beatings and middle-of-the-night disappearances in Donbas '14-'20, it's pretty obvious that the Ukes DID just walk right in and take what they wanted.
When the bombs they were firing weren't actually exploding of course...
Are we talking Ukraine in WW2? 2014 - 2022? Or in Ukraine 2022-23 at the hands of the Russians?
Perhaps in Bosnia in the 90's?
Or was it Afghanistan/Iraq in 2002-2020?
Pick your poison.
None of the atrocities that you describe happen in the course of a "normal" day in countries that are not at war, though I'm sure some readers would be quick to say that what you described is a typical Baltimore day.
None of what you describe, if it actually happened, was happening in Donbas prior to 2014.
Once at war, there are no rules. Anyone who says otherwise, is unfortunately, naïve.
100% agree with everything in your post. I was referring to Donbas region post 2014 deep state sponsored coup, and continuing up until the Russian "Special Operation" that truly sucks for all parties immediately involved, as well as for the rest of the world.
Obligatory Note: TraitorJoe and his merry band of domestic enemies took a horrible situation/set of circumstances and made things exponentially worse with regard to our future financial options, economic activity and general wellbeing. War is hell - and more so when you use it as a tool to screw the children of your citizens out of a potentially prosperous future...
Yes Bill, Niger sounds like Baltimore, Chicago, New York City, New Orleans, Detroit and every other area in the world that has the same corrupt “left wing socialist” in command. Sorry, but you can’t change an entire culture 🤔 and we could save many trillions if we would stop trying, here and there. But you’re right, it will never happen because you can’t fix stupid nor evil...
In the end the bully always meets his match. We have met our match with Russia. If you think USA will gear up for war as we did for WW2. You are sadly mistaken going into WW2 USA was a super power manufacturer, had little debt. Russia on the other hand never dismantled its war goods manufacturing facilities. The celebrated Abrams tank was designed to win against Russian tanks, as we have witnessed in Ukraine tanks are being destroyed by drones, mines, and artillery not tank battles. The Abrams is powered by a jet fuel guzzling turbine engine, there is not idling a turbine. The Abrams tank weigh is over twice that of a Russian or German tank. The fuel needed to run the Abrams is not easily source in Europe. Russia has just about destroyed the supply lines within the Ukraine. Russia's supply chain is in their backyard and in the winter a very cold and inhospitable one. The military elites would have been a lot smarter picking a fight with China, their military is a paper tiger, and Russia would look the other way. But then the folks in DC wouldn't get their bank transfers and other loot.
The US was not a superpower going into WWII. But Britain was. We were still in an economic depression, and it has been argued that WWII pulled us out of the depression. Now, however, we are a superpower, the last one standing, and Britain is just another nation.
It's only after the US passes religious law(s), thus speaking as a dragon, that it will be over for the lamblike beast. You will see, my friend. The death of the United States has thus far been greatly exaggerated.
I agree with you 100% although I am fallible His grace is sufficient. I love Jesus who is my Saviour and pray for Christians caught up on both sides of the War, especially the children. We who are disciples must become like little children or we can not enter the kingdom of Heaven......so I try with my helpmate destroyed by covid a bioweapon and taken to glory, I'm sometimes angry. but most of the time I'm just broken hearted, slowly mending and telling my heart to beat agaic. Take the Bible and read it cover to cover, John Lock's The Reasonableness of christianity and C.S. Lewis writings, a great apologist for believers....and then think about that knowledge. "For I am persuaded (convinced) that neither death or life , neither angels nor demons, neither the present or the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth nor anything in ALL creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." I'm sorry if it seems like I am preaching to you......I'm really sitting here by myself weeping. God Bless
You're quite welcome... just trying to 'share your burden' as we are instructed (by Apostle Paul I believe)... Thank you for sharing and 'speaking truth to power(hopefully). I hope the LORD will continue to bring you healing and comfort for your loss! God Bless!
I love the way Bill rattles mind-sets with his question marks.
I recall throwing around a few too but a long time ago. I tossed mine at a batch of soon to graduate National Defense University graduates no less. They were, if not the first, then the second class to graduate since the fall of the USSR
I was among maybe twenty invited to critique their scholarly papers. I took my assignment to heart too when I stood to declare I found unimaginative all their papers.
Foremost, I complained they were predicated on a war with an old country, Russia, embracing a new political format -- democracy -- whose leaders needed not confrontation but time to adapt to the rigors of a market economy .
Years later, Putin could have waged a mutually beneficial economic union with Ukraine, one so vibrant and remunerative that the two Slavic peoples would be inseparable. He didn't, and daily we read and see the death and destruction wrought by his Chaney-style hubris
wasn't that the problem why CIA/NGO overturned the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014 because they were too friendly with Russia their traditional trading partnersip in coal and O/G.
This uncovers why the US always gets into these useless wars. Well, useless from the standpoint of the people. But they ARE useful for maintaining and growing the apparatus of the state. I think it would be wonderful thing if the upcoming government shutdown (which really happens every weekend in almost the same scope) would prevent opening a new war front, but that's wistful thinking. The government would consider opening up an undeclared war an essential service just to keep the war machine growing.
Why does the US have military bases in Germany? The Germans can take care of themselves. Why in Japan?
The simple reason is that US bases in Japan help defend Taiwan...Otherwise Taiwan would become China in a nanosecond & the US could kiss goodbye to the lubricant essential for US commerce: Semiconductors
Without Semis the US would revert to the stone age
So the only reason China hasn't invaded Taiwan is because we have military bases in Japan?
Do you hear yourself Mr. White??
Please - turn off your TV and start consuming facts and reality instead of the non-stop, completely backward narratives spewed out by evil people who hate Freedom, America and you/me...
"Without Semis the US would revert to the stone age"??
Is this a good reason to waste billions maintaining military bases throughout the world? Would it not be cheaper for the US to develop its own? Or as it has invited Taiwan to manufacture the same in the US. Your argument for military conflict does not to my mind pass muster.
Wonder how long the 217 mph tram running from China thru to hr west side of Taiwan will run?!?! Just saw that new rail system this am
Subscriber (trying to keep my surfboard from being eaten by a shark. I.e. survive. Thought about putting a cash app address on my back windshield to donate to my portfolio or surfboard.?! Lol) love reading all of you. Esp Mr Bonner! I’ve come to realize how lucky you and the misses are to have one another
While a quite accurate portrayal of the relationship between Russia and Ukraine, a lot of key points have been left out.
Ukraine has been under the "boot" of the Russians, on and off for the past 300 years. It was their language that was outlawed, their religion, their way of life by the likes of the Russian dictator Stalin between 1920 and 1950's when he finally passed away. No one wanted it that way, but maniacs have a way of sticking around way too long.
Faced with a Holodomor in the 1930's by way of Stalin's "collectivization" plan, Ukraine suffered pretty brutally. Estimates of between 6-8 million died of starvation. Not of bullets, being gassed or shot. Not having enough food to eat. I can't imagine a slower and more painful death. Not to mention the horror stories (cannibalism) from the people who survived.
When the 2nd World War came, there were very few people amongst the Ukrainians that didn't welcome a "change in scenery" as the jackboots rolled over Stalin's armies pushing them out. While at first hailed as liberators, the Germans were quick to show they weren't a much better solution than the old one that had been shown the door.
With Russian knives at their throats and German machine guns at their backs, Ukrainians did what they do best. They survived. Some joined the Germans and fought against an evil that had destroyed their families in the 30's. Others, with shorter memories, and a desire to live, joined the Russians as they used their own people as meat shields and drove the Krauts back to the Fatherland.
In the end, a "cold war" emerged as the new bosses of Russia, simply kept things status quo after Stalin died. Ukraine was a separate republic on paper, but it wasn't allowed to govern itself. All commands came from Moscow. People weren't allowed to leave the country, let alone travel abroad. My mom, was a lucky one getting a 1 in million visa to leave that country to come to Canada in 1960 at the height of the cold war.
While the languages are similar (roots in slavic or "slave" language), customs, religion etc are today a bit different. History of the two nations, is inexorably tied at the hip. Which came first? Ukraine or Russia? In the end, their histories are one and the same, Russia having been formed from ex-pat Kievan-Rus peoples. If you check Wikipedia, both nations lay claim to Kievan-Rus history. From the 10th century onwards, the divisions become murky at best.
Do I support the war? Absolutely not.
The simplest thing to save lives would have been to let Putin roll in to Kiev. Do what he thought militarily and politically was right. Would everyone have agreed?
Of course not.
Would we have lost thousands of lives and displaced upwards of 2 million people?
Absolutely not.
So while we hail Zelensky as a savior, the only one he is really saving, is the shareholders of the military industrial complex.
The people of Ukraine would have lived on, tended to their gardens, lived their lives, got to see their grandkids grow up and have children of their own.
Like they have for thousands of years before.
Great overview. You had me until your last comments about not supporting the war. I'm not saying you are wrong. I just question it. White's comments below make sense except for the gratuitous insult at the end. The insult is not demeaning to you, it actually demeans him for expressing it.
Questioning is a good thing. That is what separates us from animals. The ability to reason. And use tools, to make things, rather than destroy them.
Ukraine was caught in no man's land. Not a member of NATO and wishing to distance itself from mother Russia, it was left to fend for itself. The current president was lauded for standing up to a bully. But at an enormous expense.
His own people.
War is like that. It doesn't care about collateral damage. It levels entire cities with its bombs, deprives entire generations of fathers and brothers. It doesn't care about borders. It consumes all.
One day, we will get past fighting each other.
Until then, the people remaining will have land mines littering their fields, rockets streaming overhead, worries about whether their crops are going to make it to harvest or be obliterated by a column of tanks.
We have relatives that have lost everything in the south of Ukraine. Including family.
All for someone trying to keep a line on a map intact.
We will only get past fighting each other when individual rights and free markets are accepted by all. As far as the war between Ukraine and Russia, if you are saying that there would be no difference to the people of Ukraine if they were ruled by their present government or by Russia, then I would agree with you. On the other hand, if it would be much worse, then it is worth fighting despite the costs. Yes, war is sickening and horrible, but if you just roll over and do nothing, then you are a slave. It's a matter of degree, I suppose. It depends on your present situation and what you might wind up with.
the people of Ukraine live in a democracy which they enjoy. That is why they are fighting. They do not wish to be subsumed by a madman running a kleptocracy
To say "The simplest thing to save lives would have been to let Putin roll in to Kiev. Do what he thought militarily and politically was right. " Why on earth should a democratic country allow a neighbour to invade it & take it over because in the distant past they were united.
Rather like Mexico suddenly demanding New Mexico back as their sovereign territory because in the distant past they were united .
You display breathtaking ignorance and stupidity.
It all depends what you're fighting for Andrew.
If you're fighting for a border, and are willing to follow anyone into certain death, then by all means. Fight on.
If you're fighting for your life, with your back to the wall, you do what you have to. Pick up a rifle and join the fray.
Or if you're like the 2 million or so that left the country since the beginnings of the war, you leave, because you understand that your life and that of your families are much more precious than fighting for a border.
Or which language they should be speaking at the end of the day.
Out of pure ignorance and stupidity, please share with us how your parents/grandparents came to be where you are now? Was it because they landed in a helicopter, took over some land (by force) and settled into their peaceful lives?
Mine came here to run away from oppression and war. To live on and to see their children grow up and live their lives out.
Without war.
Its how the species and lineages survive. You sidestep the atrocities, the dick swinging wars and battles that have little or nothing to do with your family surviving.
And move on.
Ukraine in its entire existence has been a sovereign nation for about 20 years. It was always a vassal state. The current government was recognized as the most corrupt in the world. The only reason Zelensky and company want to fight on is to secure their golden egg laying goose. The reason USA is involved is quite simple, Joe had not interesting GW. Bushes war one which secured his reelection. Biden on the other hand would be facing the firing squad if Russia gained control of Ukraine and published the communications between Ukraine and the Biden crime family.
Andrew, Ukraine is not a democracy that we would recognise, the 2014 regime change for instance. And there are no elections in Ukraine now.
There you go again with those stinkin' FACTS Mr. Clem...
the current president of Ukraine was elected by a bigger majority than any recent POTUS ...
Alt. Do you mean installed??
Andrew, you make some great points in reply to Luke, but your last sentence is totally unwarranted, and you only demean yourself for making it.
Hi Mr. Gallien -
The members of the lefty cult ALWAYS show their a**es, sooner or later. It is the one constant trait they all share...
I don't subscribe to any particular party, left or right SE. They're all fools in my eyes. They promise the world, and deliver us debt. And war.
I subscribe to the human race. Trying to make sure that there is something left for the grandchildren.
That's it.
"age shall not weary them nor the years condemn" age does not have a thing to do with it .. but morals ethics and conscience does ..
apologies John
If Ukraine's a democracy, Andrew, I'll eat my hat and ,in fact, it probably fits the description of a kleptocracy as least as well as Russia - or, for that matter, the US.
The poor Ukrainian people have been royally screwed by pretty much everybody. At the very least, tens of thousands - probably hundreds of thousands - dead and maimed, millions displaced and all for a war they haven't got a snowballs chance in hell of winning. All so the west could degrade Russia's military capabilities!! Great work NATO, aka the US, and the little sock puppet. At least it's pretty much guaranteed the end of a unipolar world dominated by one hegemony, so there's that
"𝙄𝙣𝙨𝙩𝙚𝙖𝙙, ‘𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙒𝙚𝙨𝙩’ 𝙢𝙖𝙧𝙘𝙝𝙚𝙙 𝙚𝙖𝙨𝙩. 𝙀𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙮 𝙬𝙖𝙧𝙣𝙞𝙣𝙜 𝙞𝙨𝙨𝙪𝙚𝙙 𝙗𝙮 𝙋𝙪𝙩𝙞𝙣…𝙖𝙣𝙙 𝙚𝙫𝙚𝙧𝙮 𝙖𝙩𝙩𝙚𝙢𝙥𝙩 𝙩𝙤 𝙛𝙞𝙣𝙙 𝙖 𝙣𝙤𝙣-𝙫𝙞𝙤𝙡𝙚𝙣𝙩 𝙨𝙤𝙡𝙪𝙩𝙞𝙤𝙣…𝙬𝙖𝙨 𝙧𝙚𝙗𝙪𝙛𝙛𝙚𝙙 𝙗𝙮 𝙩𝙝𝙚 𝙐𝙎. "
This is an INARGUABLE FACT and largely explains why we are where we are.
Yet, as is also true in so many other areas, the moronic sheep in the dimocrat herd refuse to acknowledge what is obvious REALITY...
So true Starboard! And we all know Putin will go on, just as the democratic cult of insanity goes on in America.
The cult has shown much corruption, evil and insanity since Obama was placed in office, followed by Trump and ending with another banana republic election with Biden.
We all know its 100% about the trillions distributed to all the scum involved. Ukraine is just another cash faucet for the true corruptors...And you know we can't fix stupid, nor evil...
I'm so glad that none of you arm chair generals have any real knowledge of events so you just make it up to suit your prejudice .. thank God that their are still some very good intelligent people sitting in East Kilbride Learmoth & the GAP that don't have to listen to your BS ..
Yes Altschule, at our age we can only be arm chair warriors, but it sounds like you have had a few too many sips of the red devil to help create your lost thoughts. Been there and continue to do that, cause sometimes it helps numb the pain, but try not to burn too many of the few brain cells we have left 🤔. No fantasy nor untruths here, just fact and reality. Wake up mate, as the truth will set you free 🙏
yes Steve the "truth" will set us free but you forgot the 'First' good part of this parable "Be Still and Know and the truth and set you free" but you've got to learn to shut off your own inner "Dialogue" Roy Masters KTYM 1962 Rabbi and Minister for over 60 years of the Foundation of human understanding .. still going! don't let UKR refugees near computers!
there was no written agreement about eastern Europe not aligning with NATO. It was discussed in negotiations with Stalin, but he signed the agreement WITHOUT it.
Stalin was more evil than Putin, but Putin has a few more years to go if his generals allow hi to live
Hi Mr. White -
Stalin was a bit before my time. I was thinking more about James Baker and his hollow-yet-highly publicized assurances to Gorby that NATO would not move "one inch" East. This was just before the decade where they allowed 12-14 countries to join, all closer to Russia than the NATO boundary was when he made the statement. However, if you were attempting to justify through equivocation the current ignorant insanity our "government" is conducting - well done.
PS - In my previous comment I should have made clear that the repugnicants are equally despicable when it comes to the subject at hand.
PPS - Remember kids - Orange Man Bad, but Putin Man Worse. At least until election season gets into full swing, then your betters will release the proper update to your outrage software.
PPPS - BTW, if you're worried about the "looming government shutdown", relax. It has been decided that the paychecks and pension contributions for ALL Ukrainian "government" employees that WE have been paying at 100% (only for the last 10 months or so) are NOT to be delayed in any way. Alas - we are a Nation of suckers, sheep and degenerates...
Edge you are well and truly 'OFF the EDGE' mate where in the hell do you get your history of facts .. you have NO idea how much of your life was FUC*ED up by Stalin Hitler El Dolce .. go to ancestry.com and check out your precious lineage and discover what a mixed bag of mental genetics you've inherited !
Ok Altschule - I'm clueless. I guess getting a minor degree in Military History attached to my BS in Marketing has made me confused.
AND - I'm well aware of my lineage and heritage. I'm a mutt like most everyone else...
well Edge you were neither their nor had any knowledge of what transpired in 8 years of meetings prior to Putin spitting the dummy .. for once the US has the best military in Europe who never asked for US troops like every other conflict of the last 60 years, they just wanted weapons instead of pitch forks which they used in many previous invasions ..
We Americans are all about self-determination, until it disagrees or upsets our political and diplomatic aims. Russian ethnics in eastern Ukraine want closer ties to Russia? How could such a thing be? Forget THAT. Next thing you know, we have the Ukraine mess and another huge win for the military-industrial complex and the rogue bureaucracy, the CIA. Connected politicians have run to get in on the skim. If collapse is the only way out of this, bring it on. Best always. PM
I don't think that Democratic Ukraine thinks that fighting the Russians to maintain their sovereign right to exist is about the "Skim"
It may be viewed as a skim for the US...but not everything valuable in life is about US$$$
Correct, but everything the US does IS about the US$$$. And what is "democratic Ukraine", anyway? Half of that "country" wants out from under the "democracy" that was forced on them in 2014! WHY is western Ukraine's western sovereignty sacrosanct, and the Donbas' right to self-determination is BS? Well, because "we" say so, right? Best always. PM
it's got nothing to with with $$$fu**** US dllrs ! just send the fuc*** amo tanks missiles planes and we'll show you how to win a war you bunch of dickheads who have not won a war in 78 yrs ! sorry I have some very angry refugees staying with me .. I will not let them read these "intelligent" comments in future ..
well done Bill you caused another furor !
"Not let them read" Isn't that the whole point of the discussion? This "letting" business, this "blessing- and permission-giving" business? Not sure I'm getting your point. Best always. PM
The point is Altschule (who I DO respect) leans to the left and thus is triggered to varying degrees by mere words that don't align with his indoctrination. As a symptom of this "progressive" disease, he feels the need to guard the gates so nobody else is exposed to ideas that differ from his narrative.
It's quite common...
Also incoherent. I'm surprised to see that here. Thanks. "I get by with a little help from my friends." Best always. PM
Democratic Ukraine. LoL.
I am Ukrainian. Nothing democratic about not having elections. Despite the war.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/24/ukraine-elections-war-russia-west/
While at first I thought that it was a great idea to fight back, the toll on the populace, the people, the children is too much. All the neighboring countries love the fact that all the bombs that are being dropped are being dropped on Ukraine. And not on their country. But it didn't need to happen. A crazed idiot invades. Another decides its time to take a stand. And have millions suffer for that decision.
While people the world over may be saying, "Good they stood up to the bully," millions of displaced (and now dead or disfigured) people are going, "Was fighting over a border really worth it?"
Would have been better to put Putin and Zelenskyy in a boxing ring, last man standing!
Exactly. If only.
Then the only politicians would be MMA fighters.
That would be so great, all international conflicts sorted in the ring, no need for a military industrial complex lol
NO we should never have let him get into power in the first place but the bunch of pussies running the DOD at the time were that same ilk that cost us every war since 1945 ..
Are you really using the word "democratic" as a descriptor for current Ukraine? The same Ukraine where your boytoy Z has jailed dissident and religious leaders, shut down any opposition media and suspended elections??
Since you seem to have a thing for personal insults, I'd just like to point out that judging by your posts, you ain't the sharpest crayon in the box...
SE: Go back and read some of your comments. They are full of personal insults. You must have a very short memory ( I'm being nice). Maybe you are Not the sharpest crayon in the box! You and Clem make a great pair.
i'd be very careful about casting dispersion mate ..
What, throwing things all over the place lol
Putin is evil is a sound bite drilled into brains, like Winston tastes good. It is a lie, cigarettes are awful.
Someone said, “You can’t fight evil or stupidity.
That is something I will fight with everything I am. They are both the same. Stupidity breads evil and evil breads stupidity.
From a Spiritual point of view, the government of the United States is the evil thing in existence and stupid supports it, abetting evil.
Niger and the rest of the West to East Africa belt currently experiencing political upheaval is a resource rich area which the Global South - Russia, China, et al, is taking from the Western incumbent powers. The battle is over minerals, uranium, rare earths, etc. Our foreign policy is now, and has for decades been, run by corrupt imbeciles.
Bill,
you somehow managed to by-pass as the main reason for the current Russian SOP due to the UkeNazi's repeated artillery bombing, and reported murder of 14,000 people of Russian heritage, and culture citizens of the Ukraine break-away Provinces, since 2014. Every aspect of their entire Centuries long Russian, language, heritage and culture was being repressed and purposefully erradicated by the corrupted Ukrainian gov't lackeys, via the western ZOGs, (including NATO, handlers
Reported is the key word.
Remember, prior to 2014, there weren't any artillery shells dropping on either side. A rogue army out of nowhere (where do ordinary citizens get a hold of Russian military equipment, in Ukraine?) decides to break away from Ukraine? I somehow don't think so. It was more likely a simple invasion under the guise of a province "breaking away."
And maybe they kept lobbing shells because the other side was doing the same? I don't know of any artillery exchanges where it was only a single side lobbing shells, while the other sat quietly and counted all the ordinance flying overhead. They would usually return fire. Or leave. Or attack.
Maybe they're doing it because, it's hard to forget what the Russians did to Ukrainians in 1930-32, when "supposedly" 6-8 million of them died from starvation.
After that collectivization plan was over, there was a lot of territory left unpopulated. So, Stalin simply uprooted thousands of Russians and placed them in un-populated areas of "collectivised" Ukraine.
Luckily for the Ukrainians, the western part of Ukraine had been annexed by Poland after WWI and "collectivisation" spared the brunt of the population.
Could it be that today's Ukrainians, including Zelensky remember the Holodomor and don't want the Russkies to do it to them again?
Report by the UN observers.....also reported were the multiple bioweapons laboratory. Check out the work of Scott Ritter, former intelligence officer and MD inspector, now anti-war activist for clear picture of what is going own. Zenenskey has closed the churches, closed the free press, arrested clergy, and anyone else the comedian did not like. Haas multiple homes around the world purchased by the good ole CIA/USA and sweet Victoria Uhland who never saw war she did not like. Bring our boys home!
well we can't even call it a "holomodor" that is a word only Israelis can use ..
I believe that the Israelis use the word "holocaust" for WW2 purge by certain elements of the Nazi regime.
Holodomor comes from the root Ukrainian word "holod" or "hunger" in English. The "omor" part of the word, refers to an "event" in the past worthy of remembering.
Interesting.
Thanks Luke...
Your assertion that somehow the regular citizens in the Donbass had the means, trained personnel and organization to actually return the deadly artillery fire that the rest of Ukraine rained down on them for over 10 years is complete propaganda copium. Do you have any verified sources to back up that ridiculous statement?
Nah - you don't because it DIDN'T HAPPEN...
So let me get this straight SE.
You're saying that there was absolutely no Russian military presence in the Donbas region for the last 10 years?
Why in the world would Ukrainians simply lob shells into an area that was devoid of a Russian defender? Why not walk right in and take it back instead?
Something does not compute.
Hi Luke -
Well, if you consider all the verified rapes, beatings and middle-of-the-night disappearances in Donbas '14-'20, it's pretty obvious that the Ukes DID just walk right in and take what they wanted.
When the bombs they were firing weren't actually exploding of course...
Hi SE,
Are we talking Ukraine in WW2? 2014 - 2022? Or in Ukraine 2022-23 at the hands of the Russians?
Perhaps in Bosnia in the 90's?
Or was it Afghanistan/Iraq in 2002-2020?
Pick your poison.
None of the atrocities that you describe happen in the course of a "normal" day in countries that are not at war, though I'm sure some readers would be quick to say that what you described is a typical Baltimore day.
None of what you describe, if it actually happened, was happening in Donbas prior to 2014.
Once at war, there are no rules. Anyone who says otherwise, is unfortunately, naïve.
Hence my stand on war.
War? What is it good for? Absolutely nothing.
Hi Luke -
100% agree with everything in your post. I was referring to Donbas region post 2014 deep state sponsored coup, and continuing up until the Russian "Special Operation" that truly sucks for all parties immediately involved, as well as for the rest of the world.
Obligatory Note: TraitorJoe and his merry band of domestic enemies took a horrible situation/set of circumstances and made things exponentially worse with regard to our future financial options, economic activity and general wellbeing. War is hell - and more so when you use it as a tool to screw the children of your citizens out of a potentially prosperous future...
Starboard I got few visitors from from Ukraine stay with us over the holidays maybe we can get together and sort out your perceptions ..?
I'd love to Altschule. ALWAYS looking to get better educated, discuss different viewpoints and admit when I'm wrong...
I love the historical context that you and your whole team add to your writings.
Yes Bill, Niger sounds like Baltimore, Chicago, New York City, New Orleans, Detroit and every other area in the world that has the same corrupt “left wing socialist” in command. Sorry, but you can’t change an entire culture 🤔 and we could save many trillions if we would stop trying, here and there. But you’re right, it will never happen because you can’t fix stupid nor evil...
SL: Never say "Never."
In the end the bully always meets his match. We have met our match with Russia. If you think USA will gear up for war as we did for WW2. You are sadly mistaken going into WW2 USA was a super power manufacturer, had little debt. Russia on the other hand never dismantled its war goods manufacturing facilities. The celebrated Abrams tank was designed to win against Russian tanks, as we have witnessed in Ukraine tanks are being destroyed by drones, mines, and artillery not tank battles. The Abrams is powered by a jet fuel guzzling turbine engine, there is not idling a turbine. The Abrams tank weigh is over twice that of a Russian or German tank. The fuel needed to run the Abrams is not easily source in Europe. Russia has just about destroyed the supply lines within the Ukraine. Russia's supply chain is in their backyard and in the winter a very cold and inhospitable one. The military elites would have been a lot smarter picking a fight with China, their military is a paper tiger, and Russia would look the other way. But then the folks in DC wouldn't get their bank transfers and other loot.
The US was not a superpower going into WWII. But Britain was. We were still in an economic depression, and it has been argued that WWII pulled us out of the depression. Now, however, we are a superpower, the last one standing, and Britain is just another nation.
"the last one standing*, "
*Wobbling. Profusely...
It's only after the US passes religious law(s), thus speaking as a dragon, that it will be over for the lamblike beast. You will see, my friend. The death of the United States has thus far been greatly exaggerated.
I agree with you 100% although I am fallible His grace is sufficient. I love Jesus who is my Saviour and pray for Christians caught up on both sides of the War, especially the children. We who are disciples must become like little children or we can not enter the kingdom of Heaven......so I try with my helpmate destroyed by covid a bioweapon and taken to glory, I'm sometimes angry. but most of the time I'm just broken hearted, slowly mending and telling my heart to beat agaic. Take the Bible and read it cover to cover, John Lock's The Reasonableness of christianity and C.S. Lewis writings, a great apologist for believers....and then think about that knowledge. "For I am persuaded (convinced) that neither death or life , neither angels nor demons, neither the present or the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth nor anything in ALL creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." I'm sorry if it seems like I am preaching to you......I'm really sitting here by myself weeping. God Bless
I'm praying for you as well Harpus🙏
Thank you for your blessing me!
You're quite welcome... just trying to 'share your burden' as we are instructed (by Apostle Paul I believe)... Thank you for sharing and 'speaking truth to power(hopefully). I hope the LORD will continue to bring you healing and comfort for your loss! God Bless!
I'm praying with you and for you Harpus...
I love the way Bill rattles mind-sets with his question marks.
I recall throwing around a few too but a long time ago. I tossed mine at a batch of soon to graduate National Defense University graduates no less. They were, if not the first, then the second class to graduate since the fall of the USSR
I was among maybe twenty invited to critique their scholarly papers. I took my assignment to heart too when I stood to declare I found unimaginative all their papers.
Foremost, I complained they were predicated on a war with an old country, Russia, embracing a new political format -- democracy -- whose leaders needed not confrontation but time to adapt to the rigors of a market economy .
Years later, Putin could have waged a mutually beneficial economic union with Ukraine, one so vibrant and remunerative that the two Slavic peoples would be inseparable. He didn't, and daily we read and see the death and destruction wrought by his Chaney-style hubris
wasn't that the problem why CIA/NGO overturned the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014 because they were too friendly with Russia their traditional trading partnersip in coal and O/G.
And we all know what happens when we corner a rat.
Right on, Luke. We're seeing it now.
The rat comes to Washington (again) to beg for more billions to keep the graft going...
Lol. I appreciate the sentiment SE, but I was talking about Russia. The west is cornering him. He is fighting back. As any rat would do.
Shhhhhhh...
This uncovers why the US always gets into these useless wars. Well, useless from the standpoint of the people. But they ARE useful for maintaining and growing the apparatus of the state. I think it would be wonderful thing if the upcoming government shutdown (which really happens every weekend in almost the same scope) would prevent opening a new war front, but that's wistful thinking. The government would consider opening up an undeclared war an essential service just to keep the war machine growing.
Why does the US have military bases in Germany? The Germans can take care of themselves. Why in Japan?
The simple reason is that US bases in Japan help defend Taiwan...Otherwise Taiwan would become China in a nanosecond & the US could kiss goodbye to the lubricant essential for US commerce: Semiconductors
Without Semis the US would revert to the stone age
So the only reason China hasn't invaded Taiwan is because we have military bases in Japan?
Do you hear yourself Mr. White??
Please - turn off your TV and start consuming facts and reality instead of the non-stop, completely backward narratives spewed out by evil people who hate Freedom, America and you/me...
do you actually know how many nukes/subs we have in the Taiwan straits ..
No, and neither do you.
I would HOPE (and suspect) we have quite a few. The key is that it is very likely the Chinese DO know the specific numbers.
That knowledge (maybe more than anything else) is what keeps Taiwan independent, for now. NOT our bases in Japan*...
*eye roll
"Without Semis the US would revert to the stone age"??
Is this a good reason to waste billions maintaining military bases throughout the world? Would it not be cheaper for the US to develop its own? Or as it has invited Taiwan to manufacture the same in the US. Your argument for military conflict does not to my mind pass muster.
Wonder how long the 217 mph tram running from China thru to hr west side of Taiwan will run?!?! Just saw that new rail system this am
Subscriber (trying to keep my surfboard from being eaten by a shark. I.e. survive. Thought about putting a cash app address on my back windshield to donate to my portfolio or surfboard.?! Lol) love reading all of you. Esp Mr Bonner! I’ve come to realize how lucky you and the misses are to have one another
How many times looking at history do we hear “If only…” and it’s corollary “What if…?”
Hindsight is the privilege of the survivors, it’s not the option of those who have believed “No way!” and given their lives right or wrong.
Lest we forget.
It seems the EU, WEF and US need war to hide their pathetic management of the economy.