“I'm not a gold bug. I'm not a gold guy. I don't buy gold out of some philosophical distrust of the system or anything like that. I'm actually an investment guy. I like stocks. I like investments. And I intend to have our savings in the stock market most of the time.”
~ Tom Dyson, Investment Director for Bonner Private Research
TRANSCRIPT:
Joel Bowman:
Welcome back to the Fatal Conceits Podcast, a podcast about money, markets, manias, messiahs, masochists. We could probably come up with a bunch of other descriptive adjectives for the show, but in any case, we're thrilled today to welcome the Bonner Private Research Investment director, Mr. Tom Dyson, to the show. Tom joins us from the Dyson household in London. Welcome, Tom.
Tom Dyson:
Thanks, Joel.
Joel Bowman:
Good to see you again, mate.
Tom Dyson:
Good to see you, too.
Joel Bowman:
We've got a lot to talk about today, but I think for your long time readers, they're interested in just catching up on how the family's doing. I know you mentioned that you guys all got COVID recently. We're hoping you're all well and on the mend.
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, we did. We caught COVID. All five of us tested positive at the same time and it wasn't a big deal, just mild cold symptoms.
Joel Bowman:
The highly mild variant.
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Joel Bowman:
All right. Good, good. Well, glad to hear that everyone's on the mend. So mate, before we get into your story and in particular your role as the investment director here at Bonner Private Research and the whole new project that we're undertaking here, I thought maybe we could back up a little bit. And just for who or listeners rather who might be just joining us at the moment, maybe we could start with a little bit of an origin story, if you will. I know you got into investing as quite a young lad. Do you want to just pick up the beginning of your journey and how that all came to fruition at the very beginning?
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, my dad was a banker and I guess some of it must have rubbed off on me because I was interested in finance as long as I can remember. And one day he spread the Financial Times page of all the stock market quotes in front of me and asked me to choose some stocks. I was 11 years old at the time, and I chose Marks and Spencer and Euro Tunnel. At the time Euro Tunnel was just ... I don't even know if they'd finished construction of it yet. In fact, they hadn't. I have to go back and look, but I had no idea what I was doing.
So what happened was within about a year, Euro Tunnel had tripled and I wanted to sell, but by the time I'd written a letter back to my dad asking him to sell, it had lost some of his gains, but I ended up more than doubling with my money. And Marks and Spencer, I held for many years, probably two decades after that and it didn't really do much. It wasn't a good investment and I sold it probably 15 years ago or something. So that really got me, got me started. That's where I started my addiction of checking stock prices all the time. I would grab the Financial Times any time I could and look up the prices of my stocks. And then the internet came along and that addiction just went into overdrive.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. The internet's been an enabler for many of folks' addictions, I think. A good old brand would leave that to be desired. Yeah, it sounds like a pretty auspicious start if nothing else. So you went along. Were you working at ... I think it was Salomon Brothers, was it? Or one of the ...
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, Salomon Brothers had just merged and was called Smith Barney. And then while I was there, it turned into City Group.
Joel Bowman:
Okay.
Tom Dyson:
So that was my first job after college, my first serious job. And that was in March 2000, so literally at the peak of the technology bubble.
Joel Bowman:
Right.
Tom Dyson:
Actually, the bubble actually crashed the first day while I was on the plane in the air flying back to London to take my position.
Joel Bowman:
Wow.
Tom Dyson:
So it was...
Joel Bowman:
That was a warning sign.
Tom Dyson:
Yeah. The timing was incredible. Effectively, my entire professional investing career has been a series of bull markets and bear markets.
Joel Bowman:
Right. Right. All right. Well, mate, let's get into a little bit of that because as, I think you may not protest at the descriptor, something of a contrarian, you didn't take what would be for many the path most traveled. And you have quite a colorful history even from there on out. So when it comes to traveling, and for those who have followed your postcards and your writings over the years, it's not Club Med type traveling. Tom is a pretty extreme traveler going to weird and wonderful places and traveling on trains and all this kind of stuff. So how did your interest in traveling and travel writing and investing converge? And in particular, how did that bring you up to working with Bill, which would've been around, I guess, just a few years after that, maybe early 2000s?
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, 2003, I think, I wrote to Bill and asked him for a job. I told him I'd quit my job at City Group on the training floor and I'd go and work for him for free. And it didn't quite work out how I imagined, but it did work out in the end. So I was never a writer. In fact, I can admit to you that I failed my English GCSE, which should have been pretty easy. I mean, it's a nationwide exam that anyone with a pulse should really be able to pass. But I was always much more into mathematics, economics, physics. I guess my mind is more comfortable with numbers and equations than it is with words and that kind of thing.
So the fact that I'm a writer is still a surprise to me. I never thought that that would've happened, but what happened was I was at Citi Group. I was there for four years and I went to night school to study accounting. And I'd go to professional accounting qualification as well, which I've always loved accounting, but I didn't like working at City Group. I found it stifling and I wasn't doing what I really wanted to do, which was research investments. Instead, I was working in a cubicle. I was working for a trading floor. I was managing spreadsheets and basically I was doing whatever my boss told me to do. And I was commuting every day and I just wasn't inspired by that at all. It wasn't how I had imagined it to be.
And another thing I should add is in addition to studying investing, I loved reading books about investing when I was a teenager, I read Liar's Poker. I read Barbarians at the Gate. I read about Michael Milken. I read about the big takeover crazes. I read lots of that sort of literature. And so that really inspired me to go work in the city or on Wall Street, but as I said, it wasn't quite as I had imagined it to be. And so another passion that I've always had are railroads, freight trains specifically, not passenger trains. I'm not that interested in passenger trains, but for freight trains, I'm really interested in. And I have been ever since I was a kid.
We used to have a model. I used to build model railways when I was a child. And then anytime we were in the car with my parents and I saw a train, I would always pester them to stop and see if we could see trains coming, et cetera. So I just had this fascination with trains. And I decided instead of working for Citi Group ... and Bill didn't get back to me right away, so I quit my job anyway. And I went to America and started backpacking around and trying to catch rides on freight trains, like a hobo, hobo style. And I'd been inspired by that because the internet and email was quite new at that point, and newsletters were quite new. And I'd been reading Bill's email newsletter, and I decided to write my own email newsletter back to my friends who all had cubicle jobs in London. And to describe to them the series of misfortunes and mishaps that I went through as a young investment banker trying be a hobo.
And I had plenty of mishaps to write about, and I just really wanted to entertain my friends and make them laugh. It wasn't to show off or anything else like that. I just really wanted to entertain. And that is where I first started writing and getting interested in writing. And from there, I think, I think Bill and Addison and some of the other people at Agora saw that I was in a way a unique, because I enjoyed writing, but I also had experience with professional finance. And I think it's quite a rare combination. Finance guys are interested in numbers and spreadsheets, and writers, they're interested in poetry and art and literature. And there's a rare crossover there and I was that. So anyway.
Joel Bowman:
Well, a rare crossover, I guess, that it's not so often that you get a hobo investment banker, so yeah, there's a unique flavor to your approach. And as you were describing this chapter of your journey, then I'm thinking about something else that I know you and I are very interested in, and maybe we'll do a separate podcast about this. But as you're talking about the texts that you were reading and just consuming voraciously as a nature, it's that auto didactic nature that I think when some people, as you mentioned with, with the GSE, they may not gravitate toward traditional learning, but they may have a passion or a flare for something. And if they follow that dream, whether it's on a railway or into investment biker books or Liar's Poker or whatnot, yeah, that can really nurture a lifelong love of something in which you bring a passion and dedication that is often very rewarding.
So mate, let's fast forward a little bit to when you were working in Agora for a while, writing some very successful newsletters, the 12% letter and doing a bunch to research with a lot of people whom I think ... probably a lot of our readers and listeners would be very familiar with, a lot of personalities in the investment newsletter industry. You had a bit of a break and then you picked up again ... What would it have been? 2015, 2016 or something when you got together again with Bill, spoke about a dow-gold trade? And this is chapter two, I guess, maybe of your involvement together.
Tom Dyson:
Much later, actually. More like 2019, actually.
Joel Bowman:
Okay.
Tom Dyson:
2019, so not very long ago with, what, 2022 now, so it's three years ago. Yeah. What happened was Kate and I, my wife, and our kids, we went off traveling. I'm sure most people are familiar with the story because I've beaten it to death, but we went off traveling and I had stopped writing. I wrote a newsletter for the best part of 10 years. And then I went more into the publishing world where I started a publishing company and I stopped writing. And I hired analysts to do the writing and I built a publishing business. So I really stopped writing at that point to try something different. And it was after we went traveling that I guess I got the call inside me to start sharing again. And that's when I started writing emails back to my friends, basically.
Again, it's the same story. I wanted to entertain people with our stories. And as you alluded to before, we were not staying in five star hotels and going to theme parks. That to me is not interesting, and I wouldn't want to read that. I just don't want to read that. I want to read people who do things different or funny or shocking. I want to be entertained as a reader. I always think I really just write stuff that I would like to read if the roles were reversed. I think that's where it comes from. And there's nothing funny about someone going to a five star resort and showing how fortunate they are to be by an infinity pool, or eating a gourmet meal. There's just nothing funny about that at all, so I would never write about that.
But the way we did it, we were backpackers staying in really terrible hotels and youth hostels for $4 a night. And that was quite funny, especially how the children reacted to that and how Kate reacted to that. And we were doing our laundry in sinks and hanging them up on anywhere we could find, a corner. And anyway, so I'm rambling, but that's how I got back into writing. And that's also at the time where I hooked up with Bill and Dan and I started doing something more serious.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. So I guess that brings us from a personal background to a little bit of where the rubber begins to meet the road, because as I have been reading along with others, your journey along the way, you took what I think most people would consider a pretty big plunge, or at least something that's very entertaining to read. And that's with your dow-gold trade and going all in as it were. I think a lot of people were intrigued by that. It's not a usual orthodox way to go about one's investing life. So maybe catch us up on a little bit of that backstory, and then we'll get into what we're doing now and your role as investment director with Bonner Private Research and what we're looking at going forward.
Tom Dyson:
Yeah. There's a lot to that. I think people's reactions surprised me because I didn't feel like I was doing something risky or more crazy or wild. To me, gold is really the most boring, the most risk averse thing you could do. It's like doing anything else seems to me like adding risk. So at the time, we were traveling and I think we were in central Africa when I first started withdrawing all the money out of our bank and purchasing gold. I was doing it on the phone ordering in gold in boxes. And yeah, to me, that was ... I guess I looked at the situation. And if you go back to ... and this was in the fall of 2018 at the time, gold, it was much lower than it is today. And the start market, well, that was also lower than it is today.But at the time it was at an all time high and valuations were still really high. And we were in a bull market and I just wanted to be safe. And so part of the reason going to gold was for me like, I'm on sabbatical. I'm sitting on the sidelines.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah.
Tom Dyson:
I don't want to think about investing at the moment. I don't want to worry about my savings. I don't want to stress. I want to sleep well at night. I want to have fun with my family. So to me, that's why I went to gold. As I said, I was surprised that people thought it was risky or ill-advised. But to me, that was just the best way I could sleep well at night. It was nothing more than that. So, that's what I thought of it. And if you look back over history, there are times when the stock market does very well. I'm not a gold bug. I'm not a gold guy. I don't buy gold out of some philosophical distrust of the system or anything like that.
I'm actually an investment. I like stocks. I like investments. And I intend to have our savings in the stock market most of the time. To me, there is no better way to grow wealth passively, outside of having your own business, as passive investments. There is no better investment than the stock market. I mean, that's just a fact, so that's where my interest lies. I like investing and I aspire to have my savings in the stock market as much as possible. And so…
Joel Bowman:
It has to do with timing really. What you're saying is that there's times that you want to be in secular bull markets and times where you want to ride it out on the sideline and surround yourself with safety. So for readers who aren't perhaps familiar with this trade, it's essentially you are looking for the ratio to hit five or something loosely around there, where that's a signal to you that it's time to get off the bench as it were and dive back into the opportunity. So gold is to maintain and preserve wealth, but when the time comes and when bargains abound, valuations drop back down from the stratosphere, and you see some opportunities there with the kind of research that you're doing, that's the time that you deploy some of your wealth and have it work for you. Where are we at along that right now, do you think?
Tom Dyson:
Where we were when I first made the trade, more or less, and we can talk specific numbers. The Dow-Gold Ratio back then was above 20. I think it was more like 21 when I made the trade. And you are right, yeah, I'm effectively betting that the stock market is a bad deal and I'm trying to time it so that the stock market falls and I'm able to get back in when it's a good deal. I'm effectively bargain hunting. So selling out at the top, waiting, hoping the stock market goes down in terms of gold. And then I'm going to buy back in, and then I'm going to wait for another cycle. So yeah, it's effectively bargain hunting. And at the time it took about 21… of gold to buy a unit of the dow. And today, it's a little bit below that. It's, I think off the top of my head, 19 something. And in the meantime, it's been about three years, the dow has fallen drastically against gold, reaching about 13 at the bottom of the Corona meltdown. So it was in March 2020.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. Right.
Tom Dyson:
Yeah. So I was up 30 or 40% on that trade for a second, but then the authorities came in with a load of printed money and stimulus and inflation, and it bounced all the way back. So now we're basically back where we started and we're waiting.
Joel Bowman:
So this feeds into something that you were writing about in your January issue. And maybe I'll just take a moment to point out to listeners who aren't aware. As the investment director of Bonner Private Research, Tom's paid investment strategies are available in a monthly newsletter format. Tom also does weekly updates with Dan Denning, Dan on Fridays and Tom on Wednesdays. And this is along with a bunch of other private zoom calls with members of Bill's inner network of analysts and thinkers and strategists and real estate investors. We've got a bunch of people that we're going to bring into of these private zoom calls, webinars, anyway, a whole host of other things that are available to paid readers. And I think I'm not being too cheeky in admitting that I think we may have priced this thing wrong because at a couple of bucks a week, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a price hike in the future.
I hope I'm not letting a cat out of the bag there, but if readers or listeners are interested in signing up for, I think, probably the best deal going right now when it comes to quality investment research, then the things that Tom, Dan and Bill are doing for our paid readers goes above and beyond. So I'll put a link to that in the transcript, and you'll be able to find it on the website. But Tom, to get back to your January issue, just picking up from where you left off there, you touched on inflation volatility. And this is something that we've obviously seen whip sawing in the past from the low of a Dow-Gold Ratio at 13. They pumped these trillions of dollars into the system and then we see things just going absolutely crazy. You described this in your January issue as inflation volatility, and it's going to be a bumpy road ahead. Do you want to maybe dig into that just a little bit more? And then we might get to what's on your or radar for coming issues.
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, of course. So again, these are quite complex ideas, but the gist of it is that there hasn't really been my much inflation for a long time. We've been living in a world with very moderate levels of inflation, basically, our entire lives. And to me, I started anticipating or expecting a sea change in 2018 when I finished my sabbatical and started rolling my sleeves up and getting back to work. The thesis that I basically hung my hat on was that inflation was going to make a comeback. And so I'm gratified that I was right. I mean, inflation is now 7% year over year, which is something we haven't seen, I've never seen in my adult life. And Bill's seen it before, but but it's been a long time. So…
Joel Bowman:
I think 40 years. It's about 40 years since prices were rising at this pace.
Tom Dyson:
Right, since the seventies.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. A whole generation of people who haven't witnessed this before and are just now confronting it and maybe don't know quite what to do about it.
Tom Dyson:
So, that's very important. That's very important because if ... let's say the the fed and the central government have both found a way to stimulate the economy. And basically any time there has been the suggestion of a recession or any type of crisis, they throw money at it, and the results have always been good. They've always headed off that crisis and got things back up again. And so the question you ask yourself is why can't they always do that forever? And why can't every other country always do that? What's stopping that going on forever? And the answer is inflation. It's the only answer. It's the only thing that prevents them. And for many years there hasn't been inflation and there has been no check on that behavior of bailing out the economy or reinvigorating it with stimulus. So now we have inflation.
To me, that changes the whole dynamic of the relationship between the central government and the free market, and between the central bank and the free market, and between the complicated ways that professional investors think about risk and reward. We've got inflation now. It completely changes the game. However, I always wondered if it would simply be a case of no inflation and then inflation and I don't think that's the case. I think inflation ... my gut sense is that it's going to be capricious. It's not just like a light switching on, and now we've got inflation which I imagine a lot of people imagine that's the way it is. Oh, now it's going to be inflation. It's going to be the end of the dollar. The whole world's going to melt down.
I don't believe that's the case. I think it's going to be persistent, but capricious inflation, where it goes up and then it tricks you, and then it disappears again. And so that's what I mean by inflation volatility and it's going to keep everyone on their toes that's for sure. And what it does is it prevents you ... If you knew, for example, that it was going to be nonstop inflation of 7% a year, every year for the next 10 years, it'd be quite easy to invest.
Joel Bowman:
Right.
Tom Dyson:
You just… Yeah, but because it's not going to be like that, what it means is you can't just position your portfolio in one way and just leave it, and then not have to think about your investments again for 10 years. I don't think that's going to work. I think, unfortunately, we have to have a rotation going on in order to prosper, which is going to be very difficult for the average investor.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah, for sure. And I'll just piggyback on what you were saying there in that treating inflation as a limiting principle to just infinite monetary stimulus, one only needs to look to ... I'm coming to ... you hear from Bueno Aires, Argentina, which is obviously no stranger to economic catastrophe and rolling decennial crises, usually underpinned by money printing and inflation and all the kinds of usual suspects. So right now we have officially 50% inflation and you would've experienced this, of course, on your travels to various countries. But for readers and listeners who have spent a generation growing up with more or less stable prices, what you have just said about inflation and it being akin to a kind of emergent property where it's constantly in flux, it doesn't increase at the same rate all the time.
It's a hugely volatile and unpredictable environment where storekeepers and people who are keeping inventory have to constantly readjust their strategy, even just retting prices on inventory, merchandise, et cetera, et cetera. And for investors, it's a really, really difficult environment to navigate. So let's go to looking a little bit forward. We've got probably some rough rides ahead, as you said, but we've been talking behind the scenes about some contrarian plays. Did you want to mention anything perhaps with regards to where you're looking next and the opportunities that are just popping up on your radar?
Tom Dyson:
Sure. So the reason I love gold is because by my estimation gold performs well in both, while inflation is high and also when inflation disappears. In fact, gold relatively, I think, will perform when there is deflation and the stock market is under pressure and risk assets are under pressure. I think that's when gold has its best relative out performance, but during times in inflation, gold will do okay also. It'll keep up. And a lot of people have asked, well, gold, hasn't done very well over the last year. And that's in spite of the fed monetizing four trillion dollars of government bonds. So why? And I mean, I think gold anticipated it and has risen quite a lot since 2018. And so I like gold because I think it's like an all weather. It's an all weather asset.
That said, the stock market and the investment market, just as you say, this capricious inflation is a nightmare for investors. I think there's another meme out there that in times of inflation, you need to own stocks because stocks are real assets producing cash flow. I disagree with that. I think the evidence shows that that stocks do not like inflation. Stocks like 2% is the sweet spot. If it goes higher or lower, the stock market doesn't like it, it weathers. So I lost my train of thought, where I was going there, but ...
Joel Bowman:
No. Yeah, I think we were back onto some of the opportunities potentially that you are looking to help readers navigate what, I think probably I would agree, are going to be a pretty volatile…
Tom Dyson:
It's a nightmare. Yeah. I mean, I could be wrong, but my base case is that we're heading into a nightmare for most investments. And even the uncertainty, investors hate uncertainty. It alters the models, it alters the spreadsheets. So my base case is we're heading into a bear market and generally a nightmare for passive investing. And so the only investments that I'm really willing to write about or even look at are things that have not done well during the bull market years.
Joel Bowman:
I think you were calling them old economy investments, things that are …
Tom Dyson:
Right, old economy value stocks.
Joel Bowman:
Value stocks, that's it.
Tom Dyson:
And then there's a whole ‘nother thing here. The market at the moment, and since the 2008 crisis, has really put a high premium on future growth. And that's because interest rates have fallen, and because interest rates, especially corporate bond rates have gotten down to sort of 2%, 3%, even junk bonds got below 4% for a little bit last year, which was below the rate of inflation. So effectively real interest rates below zero, effectively debt finance is free for companies. And because of that, obviously, they borrowed tons of it. And then they bought back their shares, which was a completely rational thing to do.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah.
Tom Dyson:
But what it meant was their equity holders receive a big payday. A big source of cost for the average corporation was removed. And so equity holders got a bonanza over the last 10 years. In addition to that, the stock market looked into the future at all the future earnings and capitalized them at a much lower discount rate, which basically means that therefore the price must be marked up. And so you've got these two tailwinds that have effectively really caused a huge bull market in growth stocks, in companies that have a long runway of profitability into the future.
And at the same time, investors completely shunned companies that do not have that long runway of profitability and growth into the future. And these are companies which basically tend to be old economy, utility type investments, where they don't have growth. They have cashflow. They're profitable, but they don't grow. And so the most simple example of that would be a bond, a corporate bond that pays a coupon of 6% a year. That does not get valued very highly in the market, the fashion for investing over the last 10 years.
And so yeah, I'm a contrarian and I think that that inflation is going to reverse that dynamic, reverse those trends, reverse those fashions. It might take a while and so the only thing that I'm interested in investing in other than gold, which I don't really think of as an investment, but more of as ballast or cash, are investments that have been shunned over the last 10 years. And so if I'm wrong, we can't lose much anyway, because they've already been depressed for so long.
Joel Bowman:
Right.
Tom Dyson:
But if I'm right and we do get this new sea change, I think that the market may come to value a stable but consistent cashflow with much higher multiples than it has been. And so that's why I've been looking at old economy. Shipping is my favorite as a broad basket, but also raw material producers and steel companies or coal miners or oil tankers or whatever.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Now it seems to make sense that in a world of uncertainty and unpredictability and volatility that steady as she goes, reliable, stable, cashflow producing companies that are at present at least relative to their growth cousins are deeply discounted. So, all right, well, it sounds like there's going to be a lot of opportunities for savvy investors going forward to look into your research. We're recording this at the beginning of the month, so I think we've got about three more weeks until your next monthly issue hits the digital stands. Is that about right?
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, that's about right, but I'm like ... this new sub stack model, to me, I had in mind that I was going to publish a monthly newsletter like I used to, but I now realize now, we've been doing this for a month now, that the medium, it doesn't necessarily lend itself to having a long eight page month newsletter and then nothing in between. I mean, to me, that's quite analog. That's like the old days where you'd write a long letter and once a month send it out to your subscribers, but now that the… Yeah, through the post. So I don't want to ramble, but I'm not going to lock myself into recommending stuff once a month in a long writeup. So actually every Wednesday now I'm just going to write an investment newsletter and they may or may not have a new idea in them, but yeah…
Joel Bowman:
Yeah, no, that's a very important point to bring up because for people who've been following along with Bill's new project exactly as you say, Tom, it's a new medium. And it is allowing us a lot more flexibility and to be a lot more nimble in the way that we deliver information and interact with readers. So just yesterday, for example, we tested out a thread on Sub stack, which is essentially we mail out a research note, what you would maybe consider a research note from an investment firm. They identify a particular point of interest, maybe a non-intuitive aberration in the market, or just something that captures the imagination. So Dan Denning shot something out yesterday to our paid readers about gold. And it's storied history in American monetary throughout the 20th century.
So we had, yeah, just some huge involvement and engagement from our paid readers who jumped on, had a really great discussion. There were a couple of hundred comments. People were all very respectful and well behaved. So it's just a really, really good forum where people can get in and nut out some ideas, exchanged some information, and there was a lot of really valuable discussion there. So we're going to keep on discovering new tools and new ways that we can present our very best information, including, Tom, your best investment research, Dan's observations, and of course, daily speaking of reliable and stable and just somebody that you can always rely on. Bill is there every single day with all the wit and charm and panache that you've come to expect from his daily messages for the last, goodness, 30, 40 years on the case connecting the dots. So, Tom, I just want to say, mate, thank you very much for checking in, and hopefully we'll be able to do this on a much more regular basis in the future.
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, absolutely. Please, just let me know. I would love to keep doing these, and I agree with what you said about the Substack. It's quite new to me, but so far, I love the ... It's very comfortable, so a very good way to serve our audience in my opinion.
Joel Bowman:
Excellent. All right, Tom, mate, thanks very much. And we'll catch up again soon. Cheers.
Tom Dyson:
Yeah, please. Thanks, Joel.
Joel Bowman and Tom Dyson on hobo investing