158 Comments
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Angry Icebergs's avatar

Gracelessly rounding up people who had done no wrong...and treating them with brutish recklessness — on video...made Americans uneasy. The LA Times:

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In other words, those that entered illegally did nothing wrong.

It's those nasty ICE agents that are breaking the law!

To the media, it's $$$ to exploit.

STEVE SHIRLEY's avatar

Unless they are illegally detaining 170 US citizens without due process, Miranda rights or right to call an attorney…then there was that!

https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-citizens-arrested-detained-against-will

Angry Icebergs's avatar

Biden allowed some 15 million souls to enter without identifying who the hell they are.

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If there's 170 people, that's only about .000011% error rate...

What other agency has a stellar record like that?!

Jimm Roberts's avatar

Surely you don't approve the summary executions that some ICE agents have conducted?

Angry Icebergs's avatar

Haven't seen one yet...

I have seen a few folks interfere with ICE's duties... some even with weapons.

They unfortunately FAFO.

But executions?

That's where someone is tied to a pole and blindfolded....

Like taxpayers paying for illegals...

FlyingDad's avatar

“Gracelessly rounding up people who had done no wrong.” Whoops Bill. Jumping borders in any other country gets you a prison sentence or possibly shot. WTF? Why does anyone think this is ok? It should be met with an arrest or a gunshot wound.

Ian's avatar

What about the medical neglect, degrading conditions, intimidation tactics, violent assaults, sexual assaults, denial of medical care and solitary confinement in the ICE prison camps, fan of those too?

Tom Langdon's avatar

You watch way too much legacy media and progressive politians. 95 to 99% of the legacy media comments are negative toward Trump. The legacy media are shaping the beliefs and opinions of the American public. They, like you, do not understand the nature of critical thinking. Don't be ashamed of your utter lack truth and understanding, as the American education system is hard at work shaping that which you should belive; its not your fault.

Ian's avatar

This is a whataboutism.

Both things can be true: that media and education has an ideological slant (maybe more humanistic and tolerant than you would like but hey ho) and ICE are putting people in prison camps and treating immigrants of different types and innocent US citizens in what are essentially prison camps and this is immoral.

And isn't critical thinking supposed to be about, I don't know, thinking critically? Seeing all sides, weighing things up like a grown adult who can hold two thoughts at once? Instead of, oh let me think... wild virtue signalling... defending your one-note viewpoint through ad hominem attacks, hasty generalizations, appeals to emotion, straw man arguments, causal oversimplification, made-up statistics, and the whole tragic parade? Because, and I cannot stress this enough, that is the opposite of critical thinking. You can't just attribute every disagreement to "indoctrination" and call it a day with some hysterical posturing. That's not an argument that's a tantrum with a thesaurus.

I thought Americans were obsessed with hating government tyranny? Like, wasn't that the whole founding aesthetic? But sure, let's just casually ignore that ICE could be the foundation of an infrastructure that eventually comes for ALL dissidents — yes, including the libertarian ones. The ones currently cheering it on. The irony is giving me whiplash!

Tom Langdon's avatar

Ian, your ramblings just proved by point. You would have been better off just ignoring me.

Invector's avatar

"ICE prison camps" 🙄

Couple of things.

1. They willfully broke our laws and came here illegally. That's on them.

2. They have been given every opportunity to self-deport. Had they done so, they wouldn't be in the situation they're in.

In other words--they made two very poor choices and have no one to blame but themselves. With the exception of little children, they deserve zero sympathy.

Ian's avatar

Legally correct? Yes. Economically complete? No.

The U.S. labor market depends on immigrant workers—native population growth won't replace retiring Boomers. So yes, some made choices. But also: legal pathways were inadequate, enforcement has human costs, and treating people humanely shouldn't depend on people's economic utility. All three can be true.

Invector's avatar

I disagree that legal pathways are inadequate, but even assuming they are, it's irrelevant. These people came here illegally and they should NOT be rewarded for it in any way shape or form. Every last one of them should be deported, and then if they desire to return they can do it the legal way like so many before them have done.

Anyone who thinks the legal pathway is inadequate is free to persuade their representatives to change the law. What they cannot do is ignore it.

Angry Icebergs's avatar

Many countries do not use migrant labor and have no problem

harvesting.

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What demands the population continue to grow?

If the population organically reduced in size it would be a blessing to all...

Bob O'Brien's avatar

Ian you've been smoking too eat too much cannabis.

Ian's avatar

Lol more ad hominem attacks. Good work, keep it up!

Kevin Johnson's avatar

Well, that's what the state media and the AOC types want you to believe.

Ian's avatar
Aug 4Edited

So you think this is fake news? Or just news that doesn't fit your preferred narrative?

So hypothetically, then, if we found that this was happening would you be appalled or a fan?

Angry Icebergs's avatar

Hypothetically?

Really?

Are you looking for something to bitch about?

What about allowing tens of millions of poor uneducated non-assimilating folks to enter that CANNOT be legally hired!

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Desperately they find ways to circumvent regulatory protocol and steal SS numbers - creating hell for the real SS holders!

Take jobs for less money, occupy those precious houses that are supposedly in crisis and clog hospital E.R.s!

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You don't think the government is aware that these are the things illegals do?

Biden INTENTIONALLY allowed this chaos...

They know perfectly well what they did!

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Yet here you are looking for something else to complain about...

Kevin Johnson's avatar

My rule of thumb is to consider all "news" as fake until proven otherwise. If these ICE "crimes" are indeed happening, I would hope that the rule of law would apply for both parties involved. Unfortunately, anymore in the West justice is no longer blind, it's meted out based on politics.

Worm Farmer extraordinaire's avatar

I have not seen those things, Ian. I suspect you have not seen them either.

Ian's avatar

FAKE NEwsss!!!! It’s all FaKe News if it doesn’t agree with my world view..!!

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Angry Icebergs's avatar

Patrick, with a few exceptions...

If they are illegal AND working at a legal business, they likely stole someone's SS#.

If your SS# is stolen, an illegal is paying into your account.

The IRS doesn't care; they assume you made the money and want their money!

It's your problem...pay up!

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Many that I speak with, have no idea it's illegal to hire an illegal.

The Biden Admin knew this,,,

So they propagate hard working immigrants doing jobs "Americans" won't do.

And liberals believe it.

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The reality is that most illegals cannot work.

They are desperate/forced to find income, even if it's illegal... which it often is.

Or slip under the radar, forced to undercut an existing worker.

Many live off the gov't teat and relatives that also rely on gov't handouts...

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And then there are the wonderful gangsta types.

I am sure some of you won't mind them in your neighborhood.

Excuse me, "hood".

Most are in the "insurance" business... if you know what I mean.

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Here in SoCal, behind enemy lines...

We are hard pressed to find anyone legal willing to do manufacturing work.

This is not the kind of work "Americans won't do"

It's the kind of work the media propagates to American kids as "beneath them".

....hard work.

Ian's avatar
Aug 4Edited

A reasonable approach but the ICE folk do seem to be a crap law enforcement force and make a lot of bad mistakes.

For example: they get 6-8 weeks training so less than half a policeman, they have loads of accountability gaps including no civil remedy so allows them to act with impunity if they wish, agents masked faces, used unmarked vehicles, made it "difficult for people to know whether they were being criminally abducted" or not, there are reports of agents using autistic children as "bait," beating man holding toddler during seizure, shooting U.S. citizens, no Misconduct File Cross-Checks done, many new ICE hires had prior legal issues, police misconduct allegations, bankruptcies, failures at police academy training, rushed hiring and so on.

The list is so long....

Then if you check the detention centre thing, the evidence comes from: direct testimony, independent monitoring orgs, government sources, litigation and court records and media investigations.

Again, another long list...

Is this all fake news? Or are y'all indoctrinated to ignore what doesn't fit your world view?

It doesn't take a minute a to fact check these ideas using AI (Lumo is good) and then look at the sources and see what you make of them. Perhaps, if you drilled into the statistics you might find there are not nearly as many 'bad people' as you think there are to be deported- maybe the media has distorted your understanding on this one!

Lol the thing that really interests me is the social media dynamics and the hysterical, paranoid tone of the 'debate' if this is what everyone think s of their neighbour in the US- I wish you good luck!

Angry Icebergs's avatar

No one in my house thinks these illegals are bad.

I am an employer.

In SoCal.

We know these folks very well.

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It is not any individual, it's the whole enchilada.

What is occurring are millions of non-assimilating folks injecting their ways into our occidental culture.

Many displaying and cheering waving Mexican flags... one wonders WTF they are doing here?

If Mexico is so great, why the hell are you here waiving their flag?

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Santa Ana demographics are such that it is difficult to find legal folks.

California defying Federal law allows illegals hire.

As an employer what am I to do?

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All the while illegals are stealing legal SS# and creating hell for those from which it was stolen.

And practically everyone that is laid off... receives $20k to $30k from workers comp claims.

Every bus stop bench has an attorney advertisement in Spanish advising consultation with the objective to sue their employer.

I am not exaggerating!

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We no longer hire direct.

Temp agencies are making a fortune with this arraignment.

Our company must pay a 30% to 40% premium for this "service".

It's the only way our company can hire and terminate without increasing our mod-rate.

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In the long run this situation costs more, and yes, we pass it along...

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For those that think this immigration is a good thing.

I challenge you to walk the Santa Ana neighborhood at night...

STEVE SHIRLEY's avatar

Have you watched Alex Pretti’s cell phone footage before he was shot in the back? I didn’t think so…

Angry Icebergs's avatar

You are here attempting to make the agents look bad.

Have you asked yourself WTF Alex was doing there with a gun?

Worm Farmer extraordinaire's avatar

I did watch it all for start to finish. He did not comply. Comply on the street and tell your complaint to the judge.

Kevin Johnson's avatar

Have you considered Alex Pretti is a paid spook?

Jimm Roberts's avatar

"Haven't seen one yet." I bet you could find a few if you searched online. Fortunately not many in the scheme of things. One was a citizen on his back with nothing in his hands. No doubt he was impetuous and likely unhappy with whatever ICE was doing, but certainly undeserving of being shot point blank.

Angry Icebergs's avatar

...why does everyone use the word "deserve"?

Not sure anyone thinks he "deserved" to be shot.

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It's an unfortunate situation...

Like a PREVENTABLE accident.

He could have prevented.

No one ever said... he deserved the accident.

Fred's avatar

Are you serious? "Executions" How about enforcing the law. Get a clue.

Jimm Roberts's avatar

Of course enforce the law, but surely you don't countenance killing unarmed people regardless their citizenship

Angry Icebergs's avatar

If the unarmed person demonstrates a threat, how do you know he's unarmed?

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Execution?

Really?

Since when have executions involved bodily entanglement?

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You are portraying Alex as innocent...

Alex was vile and threatening, kicking and screaming!

He had a gun.

Why was Alex there with a gun.

As an officer, what would you conclude?

Jimm Roberts's avatar

My my

I thought this book was closed, so to speak

To your remarks: I am not portraying Alex as innocent.

However, I am making assumptions

1. He had a right to object to the manner in which ICE was conducting its round up

2. He was on his back on the ground when he was found with a gun in his possession after which he was not disarmed, but shot point blank.

More: I am not in favor of porous borders. But I'm also not in favor of expelling immigrants who have successfully assimilated.

It's not their fault that previous Administrations have been lax managing our borders.

Consequently, I wish that communities could be empowered to establish centers staffed by responsible people where individuals who have no visa or who have overstayed it and who have resided here for five years or more can belatedly apply for one.

The review would allow these applicants to submit letters from their employer, their house of worship, neighbors, clubs, etc to vouch for their character.

This review could also make it easier for those who are scheduled for an asylum hearing to have it adjudicated faster and with more certainty.

Finally, I am not in favor of armed groups of masked men rounding up people whom they have reason to believe are here without prior approval.

But I am in favor of more benign ways to identify these people

Somehow, Obama rounded up and exported eight million illegals with no masked, armed people snatchers

Angry Icebergs's avatar

He does have a right, but just because you can doesn't mean you should.

He brought along a gun!

He was there, interfering with ICE, asking for trouble.

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How do you know which immigrants assimilate and which do not?

They have already changed the face of culture, and with the onslaught of more, it will change more... Muslim ideology now on the rise!

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Biden allowed these folks in; they knew the consequences.

I don't think anyone wants armed ICE agents rounding up people...seems if the local authorities would work with ICE it would subdue this display that the liberals are trying very hard to create.

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All the folks desperately trying to justify their illegal existence in the U.S. are only fooling themselves... no other country would allow this for good reason.

They do not mass assimilate, they are a drag on services and tax revenues.

They add to the congestion and create their own cultural neighborhoods.

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The media coverage and outrage over this is intentional.

You are correct, Obama did not have this kind of media hatred toward him...

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Seems the worst thing a leader can do is allow others to infiltrate and destroy the culture and union from within.

This was the imputes for all the hell that follows...

Bob O'Brien's avatar

What the hell are you talking about? No executions yet.

Sluggo's avatar

Good grief: “summary executions”? YGBSM.

You’re somethin’ else, Jimmy…LOL

Dennis T.'s avatar

It might be time for a eye examination. Summary execution is a bit much, try any of the tactics used by the anti ICE protesters against any police force in 90% of US cities and see if you don't end up on a slab. Contrary to the recent understanding of the judicial system in America, no criminal prosecution can begin until the defendant has either been formerly arrested by the police or turns themselves into the police.

As such it becomes necessary to send out the police to round up those unwilling to turn themselves in. Some are very unwilling, the police carry firearms not to protect the public by themselves from criminal aggression. That is a fact of law enforcement ask your local police or politician of either political party. This is not to say a police officer will not occasionally use his firearm to protect the innocent, but that is not what it was issued.

Worm Farmer extraordinaire's avatar

Jim, I suppose you were never a cop. When you play someone under arrest, they will either comply or fight. A picture of this. Back when I worked for that job, I was 6‘5“ tall and 265 pounds. Now picture of that video, me on top of that person. It is very ugly. However if these dead people in Minnesota had complied, they would be alive today. Jim, you’re getting so much better with reality in my opinion. if they don’t comply, what would you have them do? Exactly? What should they do? The police I mean.

Worm Farmer extraordinaire's avatar

Total BS. I used to be a cop. When you tell someone that you’re replacing them under arrest, they run they fight or they fight and run. If they do not comply, it is an extremely ugly picture when I was working there I was about 6‘5“ tall and weight about 265. Ugly.

michael hepworth's avatar

So US is 5 months into a 4 week war, that was won in 2 days, because of a weapons program that was obliterated in one night over a year ago!

Tom Langdon's avatar

Well that surely was a succinct analysis of the war timeline but it lacks nuance to the point of it being just words strung together.

michael hepworth's avatar

Let’s see if other commentators on here agree with you!

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John Austin's avatar

Yeah, great idea. It worked out so well in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.

Here's a better idea - as nowadays USA has plenty of its own oil.

Just get out of the middle east. Let the Arabs, Persians and Israelis sort out their own mess. (Israel won't be overrun, as it has the bomb, but it might stop causing trouble.).

Let the Israelis and other 'allies' buy their weapons; stop giving them away for free.

Use the money not wasted on other people's wars, and profits from armament sales, to rebuild USA's infrastructure.

Won't happen, of course. Americans are hard-of-thinking, and just don't learn.

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JODCPA's avatar

oh contrare, Pat. I know a vet that describes buying drugs from the vietcong during the day, unit getting stoned losing the hill, VC rolled all the artillery off the mountain that the marines had occupied. This certainly didn't make it into the news. Our soldiers buying drugs from the enemy in the daytime and got their ass kicked by the same at night. But, no point in stirring up old ashes. let bygones be bygones.

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Paul Murray's avatar

There was a time when both Democrats and Republicans were in favor of both laws and law enforcement. It wasn't until the political goals of one side became achievable through selective application of both law and enforcement that the trouble really started. The premise of the Left is upset, which is the goal of all revolution. There is one inescapable fact in all of this political confusion: we had more social cohesion and political progress as a country 65 years ago than we do now. It got really bad when the government itself became the source of the lawlessness, willfully neglecting both law and obligation by pursuing the policy of upset to the extreme and promoting and enabling illegal, consequence-free immigration, knowing in advance the effect that it would have, while simultaneously gambling that they would get away with it. Best always. PM

Cartero Atómico's avatar

But the lawlessness is not just the open borders of the Biden administration. Check out JD Vance on Joe Rogan saying that the CIA and/or Mossad we're behind the Epstein blackmail operation. He says it like he's a guy talking with friends at a bar or in a locker room with no power to do anything about it. The DOJ has over 6 million pages of files but no prosecutions or investigations into the operation - including who was behind it and which politicians and officials have been compromised.

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Cartero Atómico's avatar

Patrick, take it easy. This is only a forum to share ideas and opinions. No need to attack me. But if you're worried about Jihadis you better tell Donald Trump. He recently welcomed Ahmed al-Sharaa into the White House. Ahmed was promoted from former top headchopper of ISIS with a $10 million State Department reward on his head to the presidency of Syria. Donnie even made a comment about his good looks.

And don't forget Carter's NSA advisor and the CIA organized the original Al-queda for Operation Cyclone to lure Russia into a war in Afghanistan. Later, Brzezinski said the ensuing problems with Osama and his merry band of Jihadis was worth the price for giving Russia their "own Vietnam". You probably rem the picture of Ronnie Reagan welcoming the Taliban into the White House and Stallone fighting with them in one of his movies.

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Cartero Atómico's avatar

It's not important if you know more than me if you can't point out my errors. The US used the original Al-queda boys and Osama to destabilize Afghanistan and draw Russia into a debilitating conflict. Also, Trump welcomed ex ISIS headchopper into the White House. Did anyone collect that $10 million State Department reward for apprehending him? Is any of that incorrect?

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James ( Jim) Marshall's avatar

I don't think it's a surprise that the 30 yr rate is going up. It isn't going to reverse. Plenty of cash for the time when good dividend paying stocks are worth buying a LOTS OF METAL that I started buying back in the 70's. As for the illegal question, THE WORD SPEAKS FOR ITSELF! I didn't work all my life to hand out goodies to people that have no legal right to be here. It is even a greater crime when regular citizens can't get the hand outs the ILLEGAL's get!

Jim Marshall

Ian's avatar

Now this is FAKE NEWS!! The claim that undocumented immigrants get welfare citizens can't is demonstrably false— federal law explicitly bars them from major benefits.

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James ( Jim) Marshall's avatar

Well said Patrick. I was about to tell Ian to wake up and open his eyes but you had a better response.

Jim

Ian's avatar

Lol- we're drowning in FAKE NEWS!!!!

Indian lake's avatar

Maybe Trump should’ve bombed Iran to rubble instead of giving them 9 chances for a peace deal. Interest rates the highest ever? Your selective memory just blanked out the late 70s & early 80s, Billy

Paul Murray's avatar

Even if Iran were rubble, I don't think it would change the outcome. Half the country is obviously underground, remote and secure. The political apparatus is immune to pressure from the population. We have no leverage in the traditional, Western sense. If we didn't know that going in, we know it now, and we should act accordingly. Best always. PM

Cartero Atómico's avatar

Or maybe he should have followed the advice of George Washington and avoided foreign entanglements. Bombing countries to rubble because they don't agree with the US have resulted in trillions in debt.

Homer Bell's avatar

Gracelessly rounding up people who had done no wrong...and treating them with brutish recklessness

Another stupid statement made by Bill. “ done no wrong” been watching what just happened in Spain Bill?? You’re so blind and afflicted you can’t see what’s happening in this country. Only a total fool believes that all these illegals are ok to be here.

Partners, run from this guy!!! He’s sick!!! How much of his other drivel is correct??

Homer

Ian's avatar

Lol another hysterical argument. The fake news propaganda works really well on you guys.

Attila Rebak's avatar

Isn't the real question whether the Fed ultimately has only two choices? Either allow long-term Treasury yields to rise, with all the consequences for government financing and asset prices, or suppress yields through bond purchases (yield curve control), effectively monetizing part of the debt. If political pressure makes the first option unacceptable, doesn't the adjustment simply shift from higher yields to a weaker dollar and higher inflation?

Kevin Johnson's avatar

It ain't over till the fat lady dies suddenly.

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Kevin Johnson's avatar

Britain is becoming what its native son Eric Blair predicted. His only miscalculation was that the proles are not native stock but third world head choppers.

Paul Murray's avatar

Excellent, insightful description. Best always. PM

Ian's avatar

Lol Eric might be right. But the online disinhibition and virtue signalling are top class here!

Chicago Phil's avatar

If interest rates do go to all time highs, we will be lopping zeros off the dollar a la Latin America in the 1980s. Got gold?

Bill's avatar

I guess I missed something whether Biden or Trump.It's the congress that spends the money. Indeed , there were cases this year where the executive tried to pull back money and the courts ruled that the executive could not pull back the money as it was duly allocated by the congress of the united states.

Cartero Atómico's avatar

Congress authorizes spending but the president does have the power to veto any bill passed by Congress. However, Trump has not vetoed one pending bill during his 5 1/2 years in office. Both parties love spending money.

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Cartero Atómico's avatar

Patrick. Once again, take it easy. We have no say in anything anyway. But my point was that Trump has never vetoed a single spending bill. So although CONgress passes the

Cartero Atómico's avatar

Sorry. Although CONgress passes the spending bills a president can veto them. Then he can use the Bully Pulpit to inform the public why he did it. This has nothing to do with Russia, etc. Just the facts, Jack! Both teams have run up a national debt of $35 trillion this century!

John Loos's avatar

Bravo Donald Trump !

Toss out the insane number of illegal immigrants that flooded the United States with fraud and violence. At the top of the unwanted immigrants list put the radical Islamics! Trump keeps working to deal with Iran….very very unlikely any deal will last. Very sad situation.

Cheapen the U.S. dollar and strengthen U.S. manufacturing so the U.S. economy can participate in a dominant position in the coming Robot revolution. Balance out trade! Strengthen our SOVEREIGNTY. I was raised in a manufacturing family business and Asia and Europe dumped stainless steel into the U.S. for 50+ years. The U.S. government did nothing to stop it!

Clean up the U.S. voting system, social security, welfare, and every give away program. Stop creating parasites.

Abolish socialism and communism! Cuba needs to suffer till the communists surrender or get dragged into the streets by their own people and lynched. Save Venezuela and use their oil to rebuild their society and economy. Venezuela is so mineral rich….the Venezuelan people needed the U.S. to intervene so they can live free again.

Keep a very hi tech U.S. military ready on a moments notice. Yes the Military budget is enormous and that is a good thing….look at Western Europe !

The list is huge!

Cartero Atómico's avatar

What about the commies right here in the US? Shouldn't war lead by example and abolish the Central Planning Committee (the Fed)? Why worry about Cuba when we are being destroyed from within?

Is an enormous military budget a good thing when we can pay for it? Read up on the history of the fall of the Roman Empire. Overextended military, bread and circuses, an increasing wealth gap and debased currency.

John Loos's avatar

Personal debt is only a problem if the person dies. A huge Deficit is only a problem if the Country dies.

Rome fell when the Men of the Mind moved to the country. Rome collapsed on top of itself. Women were divorcing men in a larger percentage than Men divorcing women. The coliseum’s entertainment reached incredible lows. Read Will & Ariel Durant, “Caesar & Christ”.

In the case of the United States; we have DONALD TRUMP, oil, water, food, manufacturing capabilities, strong military, incredible technology. We obviously are short on Nuclear power, Potash (fertilizer) and certain rare Earth Minerals, a modern steel mill (Billet Production, rolling mill and sheet), our education system needs a massive enema….But we are very capable.

Americans need to remember our ancestors left all “The Great Western European Civilizations “ and came to North America to get away from Kings, Queens, Czars, Dukes, Duchesses, Lords, Lady’s to be free!!! Somewhere inside the majority of Americans is an incredible human spirit. Bill Bonner NEVER promotes strong America!!! Very Sad!

Cartero Atómico's avatar

A huge deficit is only a problem when tbe country dies? What about the trillion dollar we will pay in interest on the debt this year? To paraphrase Blanche DuBois - "Whoever you are—we have always depended on the kindness of foreign countries to buy our debt". What happens when that ends?

What happens when the Central Planning Committee at the Fed can no longer control interest rates?

John Loos's avatar

Here is the U.S. Debt !

1. Debt Held by the Public (~81% of total gross debt)

This is money the government owes to outside investors, held by:

· Mutual and Pension Funds ($6.6T, ~17%) – the largest public holders

· Other Domestic Investors ($5.7T, ~15%) – includes insurance companies, money market funds, nonprofits, and businesses

· Federal Reserve ($4.4T, ~11%) – more than Japan, UK, and China combined

· Individual Investors ($3.0T, ~8%)

· Banking Institutions ($2.4T, ~6%)

· Other Nations ($6.5T, ~17%) – the foreign category you mentioned

2. Intragovernmental Debt (~19% of total gross debt)

This is money the government owes to its own agencies and trust funds, including:

· Social Security Trust Fund ($2.6T, ~7%)

· Other Government Trust Funds ($5.1T, ~13%) – includes Medicare, federal employee retirement funds, and military retirement

In short, domestic investors collectively hold about $17.7 trillion—nearly double the $9.3 trillion held by foreigners. The U.S. largely finances its own debt.

So the U.S monetizes most of its own debt….pretty strange revelation for most purests.

Cartero Atómico's avatar

But the debt is nearing $40 trillion. And the $9.3 trillion held by foreign entities still means a significant reliance on foreigners.

John Loos's avatar

The U.S. has Donald Trump. DOGE has elimated a half a Trillion in recurring waste each year. Venezuela is controlled by the U.S. Venezuela has Oil and I will bet the U.S. will be rewarded for the regime change. The Strait of Hormuz is controlled by the U.S. 20% of the world’s Oil…U.S. will receive a management fee.

Holding U.S. debt is not a bad idea. We have strong leadership finally

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Cartero Atómico's avatar

And now they will have to pay the piper! Interest rates are rising in Japan too. Exploding national debt and currency devaluation was a key factor in the collapse of many a great empire.

John Loos's avatar

I am not sure you understand my remark about a deficit only matters if the country with the deficit dies ?

Japan’s and the United States’ deficit is a benefit. In 2016 Trump took the office of the President and immediately remarked that Dovish stance has its benefits.

A weak dollar policy encourages Americans and Japanese to manufacture at home and increase exports and pay down their debt.

Simple concept!!

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Cartero Atómico's avatar

Do you support the Trump DOJ stonewalling the New Mexico investigation into Epstein 's Zorro ranch? NMDOJ is suing the Trump's DOJ for not cooperating with their investigation into the crimes committed at that Epstein property.

John Loos's avatar

Epstein is a distraction….we all know he was a pervert operative.

A friend of mine is a Catholic Scholar. 20 years ago I was giving him an ear full regarding the Pedophile Priests in Boston. He smartly said, “a few bad Priests mean nothing to a 1800+ year old institution”.

Epstein is a flash in the pan. The Republican Party began with Abraham Lincoln….just a distraction.

Cartero Atómico's avatar

If he's a flash in the pan why is the New Mexico DOJ for stonewalling their investigation into Epstein's Zorro Ranch? Why won't Blanche or Crash Patel simply release all the files? We all know he was a pervert operative for whom? Vance said he was probably working for Mossad/CIA. Even former US Attorney for the Southern District of Florida said Epstein was working for "intelligence".

None of that bothers you? No investigation into who was behind Epstein or which politicians and officials have been compromised possibly by a foreign power Israel?

John Loos's avatar

Any mention of Epstein turns into a huge distraction.

The underage children came from irresponsible families. These girls, boys and transsexuals were stupid greedy minors.

The documentation is unclear….it is a distraction. So deny your opponents objective and let the liberal perverts go mad.

Cartero Atómico's avatar

Yes. Overlook all those pedos and the DOJ stonewalling investigations. Perverts on all sides of the spectrum. Lady Lindsey Graham comes to mind. Closeted gay who voted against all gay issues. Nice that you can overlook the fact that Mossad and Netanyahu may be blackmailing CONgress and Epstein's old buddy Donnie Trump.

HK's avatar

Hillarious (after Hillary C.) Bill as usual. His selective memory and forgetfulness of communist deeds in this country, laced with TDS syndrom is preventing him to see better. His buddy Obama was in war and bombing everything in the Middle East for most of his presidency.

Syria alone was bombed for over 2 years, without congressional approval, dropping over 12K bombs to get his Nobel Peace Prize. He bombed 7 countries by end of his presidency, and in his final 2016 salvo, he dropped over 26K bombs that year at 72 bombs every day for entire year. Good job and well deserved recognition by Bill.

The bad guy Trump is slacking.

rKf's avatar

The waters of the collective consciousness, churning with riptides and whirlpools, is no place for calm thought and contemplation of solutions to mankind’s distractions and distress. If possible, my goal is to make my way to more peaceful seas in which to cast my net. Later, my friends.

Paul Murray's avatar

What we fail to admit is that there is no longer enough commonality of purpose and understanding for a union to exist. One side will have to acquiesce to the other, or the two sides need to separate. In the meantime, cross purposes and dysfunction are the order of the day. Best always. PM

Paul Murray's avatar

I like it; I'm for it. My fear is this: rapid urbanization of key areas of the state creates a mass that is impossible to offset. I live in Indiana, but I am in Texas regularly, travelling there since 1994, and I have seen what is happening over the last 30 years with an outsider's perspective. I'll be going again (with trepidation) in October. The rapidly growing areas are the dominant, big cities, the I-35 corridor and Houston, which are "blue" by definition. I can't see how Texas stays "red" for long. It's worse each time I am there. Best always. PM

William Bogert's avatar

Between the exodus of Californians transforming Texas, Arizona, Idaho, etc and the brainwashing of the last two generations by academia, I fear we are screwed.... They can vote their way in but I feel my kids will have to shoot their way out.

Paul Murray's avatar

I have 5 kids. 2 boys, 3 girls, all born between 1980-1987 (and then, finally, came the "Big V"!). One, a son, is looking at Panama now. He wants Mom and Dad to go with him. He's hoping to be able to hold out long enough to get his kids out of college (8 years to go). His business is already there. His partner already lives in the Caymans. Another, a son, moved to Texas (metro-Dallas, you know, the place with Spanish-only billboards on 1-35) years ago thinking he was escaping communism. The three girls live in Boston. One flies a Rainbow Flag on her porch, and another has a picture of Bernie Sanders by the door in her multi-million dollar home. There will be no shooting. The time for that was 40 years ago. Best always. PM

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Aug 5
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William Bogert's avatar

Yes the influx of blue is very noticeable and not wanted by me. Of course my brother is a far left nut job and he loves it. I live so far out in the sticks that it doesn't really affect me one way or another, just worried about my kids and grandkids who live in the DFW Metro.

rKf's avatar

That is totally understandable. Current events seem to be a rising tide sinking all boats. We can only fight with what we have.

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Paul Murray's avatar

"Selfish and hypocritical". You just described the LeftyLibs perfectly! The hard-core commies don't have to pretend. Best always. PM

Ian's avatar
Aug 5Edited

This description also fits the loony libertarian right on here perfectly!!

rKf's avatar

This has been tried before. If Texans vote for people like Talarico, the hill grows steeper. Still … who knows. There are serious problems that require intelligent solutions.

William Bogert's avatar

The phrase in Scripture that "He will send them great delusion" is very appropriate in the case of Talafreakazoid. But all the part-time Christian AWFL'S love him. I'm all for going back to only male landowners having the voting privilege 😆😂

Paul Murray's avatar

So long as we're dreaming, let's restrict the vote to ONLY property owners and NET taxpayers, people who actually make physical payments to the Treasury Dept. via their collection agency, the IRS. Best always. PM

William Bogert's avatar

Right there with you!

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rKf's avatar

Good luck with that! 🫣

rKf's avatar

It isn’t hard to come to that conclusion and that is discouraging.

Paul Murray's avatar

I always thought financial collapse would occur before a real, honest bloodletting, or even a figurative bloodletting, because the financial collapse would have required differences to be set aside. I guess I learned nothing from 9-11. Things will be better in 10-15 years with the marginalization of the Boomer generation. Best always. PM

rKf's avatar

You sound pretty optimistic. What about all those young “minds full of mush” who don’t understand the foundations of U.S.? You know, the ones wearing hammer and sickle pins on their Che Guevara T-shirts?

Paul Murray's avatar

Haha. Most people claim I'm the pessimist's pessimist! I'm just trying to see a way forward. The conservative, traditional-values Boomers, which are the bulk of the Right in this country, will be gradually retiring. That might be enough to restore consensus politically, socially, and politically for the country to continue as a union, albeit a democratic-socialist one. At that point, I'll either be dead or won't care. It will be sad for me personally, but if that's what the majority wants, so be it. We're supposedly for self-determination in this "country". One thing sure: the country will continue to decline to irrelevance through discord and dysfunction the way we are going. We either need for one side to acquiesce, allowing the other side ascendance, or we need to separate. There is no other way. Best always. PM

rKf's avatar

I’ve found you more realistic than pessimistic; I wouldn’t at all call you pessimistic.

Ian's avatar

Another option is to get wise to radicalising effects of social media (as exhibited on here as elsewhere) and get to a place where political debate is more fact-based, balanced and tolerant.

Cartero Atómico's avatar

What about the minds of mush who don't understand the foundations of the US? You know, the ones ignore the warnings of the founding fathers concerning debt and foreign entanglements. The ones who have no problem with military interventions that have resulted in trillions in additional debt to be bequeathed so kindly to future generations. The ones who have no problem with virtual search and seizure enabled by Palentir and the surveillance state. The ones who have no problem with Socialism for the Rich. Sam Altman is already hinting that the AI geniuses will need a government bailout like that provided to the Banksters by both parties in 2008/9.

rKf's avatar

Those ones too, the dangerous ones, the highly motivated ones, minds not mushy but closed.

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Cartero Atómico's avatar

So maybe we shouldn't expect a savior to lead us out of the wilderness. Both parties have contributed to our decline. Both parties have saddled us with a debt of over $39 trillion. Both parties backed the useless and costly invasions of Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc. Both parties are responsible for the coverup of the Epstein blackmail operation. JD Vance even tells Rogan that the CIA and Mossad were probably behind it but he has no intention of doing anything about it.

Salters Trader's avatar

It's interesting how the equity markets are treating all this bad news. The SPY has hit all time highs and is up 3.27% today and the QQQ gapped up at the open and has just kept climbing. It's up 3.2% as of now. It makes me think that maybe some of the gold bugs and doom and gloomers are missing something somewhere. I've never read this much negativity in my life other than the covid months and the great RE recession. I'm playing it defensive but I still own some AI stocks and some tech stocks. I'm a believer in gold and silver for insurance. But it's not in my nature to hide in a cave month after month. I guess we can bash Trump to pass the time.

Cartero Atómico's avatar

Can you really call them equity markets when a majority of trading is done by algorithms? The machines see a headline that there is a possible truce with Iran and they go crazy.

Salters Trader's avatar

Equity markets is just a descriptive label. Humans program the algorithms and can override them anytime. Smaller intermarket trades are made all day long by program trading, but the major strategy is handled by management.

James F's avatar

Bill says: "The Federal government now pays over $1.2 in interest payments a year" Hey, that's not even $2 ! And here I thought it was in the billions or trillions.