Welcome to another Fatal Conceits Podcast.
In today’s episode, we’re joined by our good friend and regular favorite on the show, Christopher Mayer. Long time listeners will know Chris as the portfolio manager and co-founder of the Woodlock House Family Capital Fund, which he began with Bill Bonner back in 2018.
Chris is also a published author who just released his latest book, Dear Fellow Time-Binder: Letters on General Semantics, which you can find here. His blog, in which he ruminates about life, markets and “this thing we call investing” is considered essential reading around the Bonner Private Research office. Check that out, here.
In today’s conversation, we take an unhurried stroll through Chris’s library and get his take on Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s Reveries of a Solitary Walker, Robert Bruner’s Deals From Hell, the latest Buckminster Fuller biography and plenty more besides. Please enjoy and feel free to share our work with fellow readers, thinkers and solitary ramblers…
Cheers,
Joel Bowman
TRANSCRIPT:
Joel Bowman:
All right. Welcome back to another episode of the Fatal Conceits podcast, dear listener, a show about money, markets, mobs, and manias, not necessarily in that order. If you haven't already done so, please check out our sub stack. You can find us at bonnerprivateresearch.substack.com. And on the site there you'll find hundreds of articles on everything from high finance to lowly politics and everything in between including, of course, many more conversations just like this one under the Fatal Conceits podcast tab at the top of the page. Today, we're delighted to welcome back to the show long time friend of Bonner Private Research and the portfolio manager of Woodlock House Family Capital Fund, which he co-founded with Bill Bonner back in 2018. A good friend of mine, Mr. Christopher Mayer. Welcome to the show, mate. How do you do?
Christopher Mayer:
I am well. Thank you for having me on, always good to talk to you.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah, absolutely. You're in a new place up in Maryland?
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. I live in Mount Airy now. It's a nice little town, very green, lots of golf courses around. It's open, it's nice. I like it here.
Joel Bowman:
Good stuff, mate. We were speaking just before we hit the record button here and I told you that I would be remiss if I didn't at least throw out one financial question at the very top of the segment here. I guess what everybody wants to know is, after our June lows, we've had a 20 odd percent bounce in the S&P, what many would consider to be the classical definition of a bear market rally. Is this something that, first of all, you agree with? And secondly, does it concern you, as somebody who's in it for the long term and more focused on individual stock selection?
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. Well, everybody wants to know the unknowable, right? Is this the bottom or we have more to fall or are we off and running? I don't look at it that way. I'm focused more on the individual companies I own. And I have to say, this is probably one of the easiest bear markets I've been in yet because I have now second quarter reports in hand for all my companies except one, and they're all firing on all cylinders. I mean, if you just looked at the financial statements, you wouldn't see any cause for concern. You'd be surprised that the stocks were down at all. So I think times like this are an opportunity. What's remarkable, I suppose, is the swiftness of this decline. So we're through August, this is the fifth worst start for the S&P 500, going back to 1928. So that's historically interesting and that ...
Joel Bowman:
Anything interesting happened around 1928-29 or there abouts?
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. People like to make different comparisons, and it doesn't have to be catastrophe. I saw somebody on Twitter had put out charts where they said one for the bulls, one for the bears. And they had set up the decline that we see now and matched it up perfectly with '07, '08. But then someone else, they had matched up perfectly with another market where it went straight up. So, when do that kind of data mining you can find the pattern to make whatever argument you want to make, but they're all different in different ways.
And this one feels different in that way, in that the underlying performance of companies so far is strong and there are pockets of the market that are weak. Of course, if some of the retailers have disappointed and banks earlier, didn't do so well, but by and large things seem to be holding up pretty good. So I'm not concerned. I think this is an opportunity for sure. And if you have any kind of time horizon, five years at least, I think you're going to do pretty good while picking up some things today.
Joel Bowman:
When we spoke for your segment on Bill's round table, which we recorded, I guess, maybe a month or so ago, you mentioned of course that with the benefit of hindsight, which we would all love to luxuriate in 24/7, you look back at those other market drops that you saw in 2008 and before and now they look like little blips. So who knows what the future will hold, but if you had the steel to hold and even pick up some bargains during that time with some stock selection, you could do very well.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. And the stock that I mentioned, I think on that call has put in a new 52 week load today, so... It's even better now, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Joel Bowman:
There you go. All right. Well, looking at your bookshelf behind you there, one of the things that I love about our conversations, and for listeners and viewers now who are just joining us, I know we've got a lot of new readers on the Bonner Private Research sub stack, so welcome if that's you. Chris and I have had a few conversations here now, maybe three or four where we thumb through Chris's bookshelf and just do a little bit of a deep dive into what makes Chris tick as both an investor and a thinker and a writer. So I'll link to a couple of our previous conversations there so readers can get a little flavor of what we're about here. As we were emailing a little back and forth in preparation for this call, Chris, you nominated a typically, characteristically eclectic clutch of books, as you tend to do. Do you want to take us from the top, maybe beginning with the classics? Where do you want to start?
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah, we can begin with the classics. So a lot of these books behind me are old philosophy books. This is my main study here, but then across the hall, I have another library where my investment books and other books are. And then downstairs, there's another little section where some fiction is. And since we moved this library is about half the size it was, but it's the way it goes. But the classics I had recently read and thought I would share is Rousseau, the Reveries of the Solitary Walker.
He wrote this as his last book and it's a series of 10 walks. So he goes off and he writes what he was thinking about on these different walks. If I were to describe it, I would say it's a rumination on happiness. What makes people happy? What makes them unhappy? And so this is old Rousseau looking back, and he's an interesting guy. He's a really good writer, but I have to say he's also a hard guy to like sometimes. I don't know. You mentioned in the email that you had read his Confessions, which I have not read yet, but I've heard about them. Yeah.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah, I read that recently, actually just in the past, I want to say six months or so, and maybe a spoiler for some listeners who haven't gone through much of their Rousseau yet, but yeah, he had a long running feud with Voltaire after a friendship earlier in their life. Voltaire was pretty savage in his attacks on Rousseau later in his life, especially for perceived hypocrisy around raising kids and education and that kind of stuff. It's pretty hard to like him after you discover some of those warts, those and skeletons in the closet.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. Yeah, it was unbelievable, but there are a lot of things like that. But then I think also he's very thin skinned. He seems to take offense pretty easily. But having said all that, he's also a good writer and deep thinker. And in this book, he talks about things that make him almost sound a bit like an Eastern philosopher. He starts talking about, what makes people happy comes from the inside and not being too bound up with externals and being able to be more unaffected by the vicissitudes of life. And he really comes to appreciate nature. There's one letter where he talks about how he gets in a boat and goes into the middle of a lake and just lays at the bottom of the boat, looking up at the sky and loses himself for hours in a peaceful meditation. So I don't know, it's a fun read. And it's not heavy reading either, it's pretty easy to read.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. I think some of these other works, Emile in particular, is notoriously difficult.
Christopher Mayer:
And he's known for his political stuff, so I know that that can be difficult too.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah, The Social Contract and whatnot. Do you make anything of the rambling philosopher at all? There were others, differing vastly in their world views, such as Nietzsche who wrote in a very aphoristic style. He would go on these long walks and just meditate on what he thought was important. Obviously more recently, Taleb wrote his book of aphorisms and it seems to be one type of medium through which to distill your thoughts and get some clarity for anything like that.
Christopher Mayer:
Yes. I think of Henry David Thoreau also. He'd do these walks and he'd write in his journal.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah.
Christopher Mayer:
Emerson was a great keeper of a daily journal. Kierkegaard was also someone who wrote avidly in a journal. I have his journals right there. But yeah, I think there's something to that. And then even in some of the great Eastern philosophers too, they wrote in little snippets, like Lao Tzu or Laozi's Tao Te Ching and those guys. And that compares to these heavy, weighty treaties that Hegel and Kant would write, they're impenetrable. So I think there's something to say for that.
Joel Bowman:
The critique on the top of my finger, yeah.
Christopher Mayer:
That's critique of pure reason?
Joel Bowman:
Right there, yeah.
Christopher Mayer:
I have that there. That's over right here. Yeah.
Joel Bowman:
These big, weighty tomes. Those system builders, the Hegels and the Wittgensteins and whatnot, they can get so dense. It's almost sometimes a little impenetrable, but going back to ... you and I have spoken about Thoreau before, and of course Walden. He was social distancing a long time before it became cool on the outskirts up there in New England. I often wonder that, just by occupational hazard, we have our noses so close to the screens, we might be watching ticker symbols or analyzing charts or looking at company reports and that kind of things, if we wouldn't benefit a little from just stepping back, getting some perspective, going to play a game of golf, going for a walk in the woods and decluttering from time to time.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah, definitely. I think that's a good point. And there's the science about that too, about what happens if you press yourself too much. Your brain needs some time to recharge. Concentration is almost like a resource, and if you constantly are at it, you got to give yourself a chance to regenerate. It's also interesting, some of these philosophers, like Nietzsche, some people think that it's because he had such intense migraines and a lot of other ailments that he preferred to write short because he couldn't sit there for that long and write long pieces. I don't know if that's true or not, interesting theory. But it does also seem like some of the philosophers who write shorter do have some love of nature too. They do tend to get outside and they're walking and then they write down these observations. So yeah, I think there's some value in detaching. Even Bill has told me that before. He says we should have some other outlet other than markets. For him, he likes his masonry and he's always working with his hands, but it's good to have something else.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. Over the summer, my wife Anya and I and our daughter were touring around a little bit of Europe. We went to visit the Bonners in their country estate out in very rural Ireland ...
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. I was in early June as well.
Joel Bowman:
Oh, yeah. That's right.
Christopher Mayer:
We were close in there. We just missed timing.
Joel Bowman:
That's right. Yeah. But it is funny to see. Bill will do his daily work and then he'll throw on the dungarees and march down the country lane and spend a few hours doing some masonry work and come back all dusted up for lunch or whatnot. But yeah, I think it's almost akin to when you teach your children, for example, when they've forgotten a word, they get stuck on something. They want to say something and for the life of them, it won't come to them while they're thinking about it. And you have to distract them and get them thinking about something else, talk about what they did that day or whatever and then, all of a sudden, there it is.
Christopher Mayer:
I think in the investing world, I mean, there are freaks like Warren Buffet who seems to have no interests other than investing.
Joel Bowman:
Big banks. Yeah.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you've ever read The Snowball, which is the biography on him.
Joel Bowman:
No.
Christopher Mayer:
He's really a strange guy. He has a diet of a six year old, lives in the same house all that time, not particularly well-read at all. I don't know if he'd even know who Rousseau was. I mean, he just doesn't have that kind of background and no real hobbies or interests. I mean, he does play Bridge, so maybe that counts, maybe that's something.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah.
Christopher Mayer:
But it's very strange.
Joel Bowman:
He's almost like an idiot savant. You have all these arrested developments in other aspects of one's life. But then when it comes to analyzing markets, his the brain just goes into overdrive.
Christopher Mayer:
A lot of the better investors I know do like to read and they are curious. So I think that's a good trait to have, because when you think about businesses, you're learning about people and people have different philosophies and styles. You often think you can tell this history of the world through any different lens. You could tell it through investing. You could tell it through music. You could tell it through food.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah.
Christopher Mayer:
If you go deep enough, they all come together and these same philosophical topics eventually crop up.
Joel Bowman:
It's interesting, isn't it? That was one of Anthony Bourdain's observations that he would use. You mentioned food and we've talked obviously about travel and music and things like that before. He was a great believer that the same conversations are essential to human nature no matter where you go around the world. And you can use something like food, something as common and as communal as that ceremony, as a way of getting into all of the things that were happening in wherever he was, Phnom Penh or Nairobi or what have you. He would talk to people and then get into the rest of it. You could learn about supply lines. You learn about living standards. You learn about history. You learn about the politics of the place, the economics. All of the kinds of things that you see reflected in a stock market, for example, you might see if you really pay attention reflected in just breaking bread with someone in some far flung place around the world.
Christopher Mayer:
Yes. I agree with that, and I'm definitely a big Bourdain fan, so maybe that seed was planted. He's a guy I miss. I'd like to have him around, see what he thinks of some of this crazy stuff going on. Of course there's a number of people we could say that about, but he was a good one.
Joel Bowman:
We were mentioning as well recently reading the biography of Bucky, or Buckminster Fuller.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah, Buckminster Fuller. Yeah, it was a big, fat book. It came out just recently. It's called Inventor of the Future by Alec Nevala-Lee. And when I first saw it I was very excited because I thought, "Wow, Bucky, as he would like to be called, getting the Royal presidential treatment, this big, fat biography. It's hard to describe what he did. I mean, he was an inventor and he was a poet and he did all kinds of things in his life. He was a philosopher as well. He wrote books and he was a coveted speaker. So he did a lot of different things.
I read this biography and I think it is the definitive biography of his life, the when and the how he did this then and here and there. It sorts through different events and separates some of the myth from what probably happened. So in that sense, it was interesting to read it. But in the other sense, it focused a lot on his personal failings. He had a number of affairs and he had some other problems, so took away some of the magic. If you didn't know who Buckminster Fuller was and you picked up this biography and read it, you'd walk away thinking, what's all the fuss about?
Joel Bowman:
Right.
Christopher Mayer:
But he was something. I mean, Steve Jobs loved Buckminster Fuller. You know that famous Apple ad "think different" and it goes through 16 or 17 different icons? Buckminster Fuller is in that ad and that was at the request of Steve Jobs. He received 30 honorary degrees. He had something like 25 patents. This book, I didn't feel like it really brought home any of that. He was again, a very coveted speaker all over the world, he had fans all over the place. So anyway ...
Joel Bowman:
That's interesting, isn't it? When we talk about historical figures, even as recently as someone like Buckminster Fuller, one wonders if they would even be given a start today or whether they'd be canceled before they got going. I wonder if people would focus so much on their shortcomings? I mean, you're not reading a Buckminster Fuller book for marital advice, presumably. You're reading him for his philosophy on this or his inventions or his thoughts on this and that. I wonder in our haste to dig up the worst dirt on everybody, how much of the good we miss out on.
Christopher Mayer:
Of course there's a lot of people like that in history, right? If you were going to go through all the shortcomings, you'd hardly read anybody. I mean, shoot, Heidegger's one of the best examples of that for the 20th century. He's a Nazi, he's out.
Joel Bowman:
Ciao.
Christopher Mayer:
I mean, look at some of the stuff Hemingway wrote, homophobic stuff and misogynistic stuff. Forget it. So yeah, I don't know. It's a good point.
Joel Bowman:
All right, mate, let's move on to your second book here. Is it Deals from Hell, I think we've got up next. That's a great title by the way.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. It's called Deals from Hell, M&A lessons that rise above the ashes by Robert Bruner. This book was sent to me by a fellow money manager. And well, most of the book is case studies of M&A deals. But if you were to get this book, I would recommend at least just reading the first three or four chapters, because what it really does is that it kills this myth that M&A is a bad thing, mergers and acquisitions. There's a prevalent negative view among people, even professional investors, they don't like acquisitions. And their view is, when you do an acquisition, most of the time it destroys value for shareholders. And in this book, he goes through a lot of research and studies that have been done in M&A and he comes to the opposite conclusion, that M&A does pay.
Joel Bowman:
Oh wow.
Christopher Mayer:
And it's interesting why that is the case. So he says, an objective reading of more than 130 studies supports the conclusion that M&A pays. And one of the reasons why the conventional wisdom fails, as he says here, people generalized too readily from the findings of a single study. So there are some very high profile disasters, right, in mergers. And that's what gets all the attention versus all the little deals that get done along the way that worked out perfectly well. So the tendency is to exaggerate the failures and the key line here that I double starred, he says: "All M&A is local," which I really like. You really have to look at it on a case by case, deal by deal basis. And it took me a while to get over that hurdle, but now I've found some companies that are really great acquirers of other businesses, just systematically are able to add and plug in businesses to their growing little empire and do very, very, very well.
Joel Bowman:
So is this something that's affected the way that you think about the universe of potential investments that you come across on a daily, weekly, monthly basis?
Christopher Mayer:
I would say I had discovered this earlier. I wouldn't say this book turned my opinion on what I think, because I'd discovered that on my own, that M&A is really nuanced. And I've discovered a number of these companies. People now call them "serial acquirers" and they have done very, very well. There's a number of them in Sweden. There's a couple in the UK. In the U.S., there are several as well that just continued to acquire companies as their main avenue of growth. And they've been wonderful investments. So what makes those successful versus the failures? This book helps highlight that too. You've got greater propensity of failing if it's a very large deal, if it's very complicated, versus smaller deals, or if you're doing something that's in a business unrelated to yours. There are a number of things he goes through. But I think the value in this book is really busting that general myth and forcing you to think more nuanced about the topic of mergers and acquisitions.
Joel Bowman:
That's interesting. I like those myth busting books, those that turned things that you might have thought previously on their head. I'm wondering if the general consensus is such that mergers and acquisitions are bad might not offer a little pocket of hidden opportunity, an overlooked opportunity for people who could get past that stigma.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah, I think it did for a while. And then I think a lot of these serial acquirers are now priced pretty well. So I don't know that that's necessarily true anymore, but it might be. Part of the reason I think is that it can be difficult to model these things because you don't necessarily know when the deals are going to strike or what they're going to look like. And if they deploy a lot more capital than you model, then there's going to be some big surprises. So it's a tough thing to predict and project.
And so if you're willing to go with the uncertainty and you trust the capital allocation, trust the team and the process that they have, and they have a track record of successful deals. And you can do that. You can look back and see whether deals were successful or not. You can see whether there are impairments. You can see what happens to the overall companies' returns on capital, whether they go down over time as they do acquisitions, watering it down, or whether they're able to preserve it or even grow it.
And it depends on the amount of disclosures companies give you. Sometimes you can really dig down and you can see how certain subsidiaries they acquired, how they've done sales and profit wise. And you can back in and say, wow, that was a really good deal. So I think that's the key. It's like most things in investing, in life. You can't go through it too generally, everything has nuance. And our culture forces everything to be squished and reduced to a headline or reduced to a soundbite or reduced to a one single powerful message that you can deliver, but on most things, there's a lot of nuance and complexity.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. And oftentimes I think that looking beyond that the black and white or the binary conception of the world can flesh out a lot of useful information. I was going to ask, because you touched on a few different investing jurisdictions there, Scandinavia, Europe. I know that you invest, around the world, that you have an international portfolio...
Christopher Mayer:
Yes.
Joel Bowman:
Are there things that you'd look at in particular when you go into foreign markets, say for example, the transparency of their reporting, the maturity of the market in general, or does that all depend on price?
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah, there's definitely interesting jurisdictional differences. So even on this topic of M&A for example, there's a solid pocket in Stockholm where there's a dozen of these serial acquirers and they're all good at it. For some reason, it's like a Silicon Valley of serial acquirers there. Culturally, there's something there. There's about it and you don't see anything like that in Germany or France. It's just different. And in the UK, there are a few. And then in the states, there are several. But it's interesting to me sometimes how you can have such big differences in regional markets, even if you compare Sweden to the other Nordics. I mean, there's a lot of differences there in how business will run. For example, a lot of the Swedish serial acquirers will report on return on capital employed. I mean, they'll be right there, a number that they're tracking and targeting. And as an investor, I'm like, that's fantastic! Here's what you want to think about. Right? And not this BS about sales growth or earnings. These guys are focusing on the real things that matter. They get capital allocation. So yeah, I mean, those kind of things are pretty neat when you find that.
Joel Bowman:
Yeah. You toss a line over the side of your boat and you find a lot of what you like, you start to bait up again. Good stuff. Just going from the title there, I haven't read the book, but I expected there to be some horror stories in there. Some actual "deals from hell"?
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. I mean, well the classic is the AOL, Time Warner deal. Time Warner bought AOL at the top. And yeah, I mean, then you've got some horrific charts here where they announced the merger and then the company becomes worth less than the deal value was. I mean, it's just a remarkable amount of destruction of wealth on some of these things. So yeah, there are definitely horror stories in there.
Joel Bowman:
Right. They're the headline grabbers that you were mentioning before that shaped public opinion.
Christopher Mayer:
Well, that's it. That's exactly right. Those are the ones. When people think of disasters, most people can think of these ones.
Joel Bowman:
All right then. Let's move on, Chris, to your own latest release. How many is this for you now, mate? You've got to be working on half a dozen?
Christopher Mayer:
This is number five.
Joel Bowman:
Number five. Okay. All right. Congratulations. Let's get into it.
Christopher Mayer:
It's called Dear Fellow Time-binder: Letters on General Semantics.
Joel Bowman:
All right. You're going to have to back up a little bit here for our listeners. We're going to go back into some previous conversations. Maybe you could do as your man Korzybski might do and help "map the terrain" for us.
Christopher Mayer:
Right, well, if you read, [my book] How Do You Know?, this book is a second crack at those ideas, except that I drop the investing focus. So, How Do You Know is really applying these ideas to investing. And then this is just a more general exploration. I call it letters. I was actually, as I say in the preface, I was inspired by Seneca's letters. He wrote these letters where he explained stoicism, and there's some debate about whether they were really letters or not, whether he would really mail them, but they were written in the letter format as if he was teaching somebody. And I thought that's a good way to do it, so I did this. I thought, if I were teaching someone of these ideas, how would I do it? What are these ideas?
You mentioned Korzybski. Yes, Alfred Korzybski was a guy in the 1930s who created this discipline called general semantics. As you can think of it more as an aid to critical thinking. It focuses on the assumptions that we make with different symbols and language and how they interplay with how we behave. And there's a lot to it actually. There's a lot of different things to it. So it can get deep and get into all kinds of things about causation and things we take for granted. So what makes this book different, too, is it's published by the Institute of General Semantics and they gave me access to the archives for Et Cetera, which is their journal they've been publishing since the 1940s. And another publication they have, The General Semantics Bulletin. So I had these two archives.
I was able to go back and I mined them because there were some interesting characters that taught these ideas over time. You won't know them now, but they're in the book, people like Wendell Johnson, Irving Lee and S.I.I Caldwell, these different people. They're interesting characters on their own. And so I was able to pull out different things from those archives. So it was really interesting to read in the 1940s, what people were thinking about, worried about. War of course hangs over the whole thing and so it was very appropriate then because they were looking at things like propaganda and taking apart the meaning of all these different terms and phrases and the ideas behind them. So, that's one thing that was really fun about doing this book. And I just did it on the side. Some of the letters were already published in their journal, Et Cetera, over the last couple years. And then finally the book came out this year, so I wrote most of it actually in 2020.
Joel Bowman:
As you're speaking now, I'm thinking about the messaging, let's call it, what used to be called propaganda before it underwent a public relations campaign itself, and is now called public relations. I think it would've been in the early 1900s when Eddie Bernays was just getting his start in the United States. He was the fellow that brought the world the phrase, "Making the world safe for democracy." And that was the banner under which he convinced Woodrow Wilson to commit American troops to World War I. America was a largely war weary continent as it had only just emerged from its own civil war a generation or so previously. And all of a sudden, with the right "messaging," we have troops marching off to war. And it does make you think, if that was happening then, and if it was happening in the forties, if this was on people's minds, it would be perhaps naive to think that this wasn't happening at some level today.
Christopher Mayer:
Yes. I mean, it's interesting to think about why that stuff works. Why does that phrase have power, "making the world safe for democracy?" What does that even mean when you think about it? And so that's what general semantics looks at. I think the biggest thing I've taken from Korzybski really is just that, to be conscious of what he would call "abstracting." So there are all these words and phrases that we use that really don't mean anything when you think about it. They mean whatever people want them to mean. They have dozens and dozens of different meanings, "democracy "for example. "Recession" would be one. Capitalism would be one. You hear people talk, especially politicians, about our "capitalist" system. And then you talk about other people and they're like, What are you talking about? We don't have a capitalist system. We've got something else entirely.
Joel Bowman:
It's a corporatocracy.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah, exactly. Right. So all the kinds of labels we throw around. Even political parties. Saying someone is Republican or Democrat doesn't really say much.
Joel Bowman:
Right.
Christopher Mayer:
It's freighted with assumptions. And then sometimes words as we know them have become so freighted with connotations that we have to invent new words or we have to drop them. We can't even say the old words anymore. You look like you may have some examples to throw in there.
Joel Bowman:
I know. I'm not going to a risk cancellation by listing off a shopping list of unmentionables. But yeah, it's certainly the way. And I think also with regards to the way semantics is treated in our modern public discourse. We have a narrowing of definitions that we're permitted to use or that we're almost shoehorned into.
Christopher Mayer:
Yes.
Joel Bowman:
I'm wondering if while you were mining these archives, doing research for your own work, if you came across any time when the range of concepts, the range of language that we had available to us was so narrowed that it impacted the way we're even able to conceptualize and think about things in the first instance.
Christopher Mayer:
Yes. There's a hypothesis I talk about in the book is called the Whorf-Sapir Hypothesis. And the idea is that the language we use actually actively shapes what we think, just like what you're saying. I can think of Whorf's examples because he used to work in insurance and he would say things like ... let's say there was a fire started in some factory and he would have to investigate the fire. And he would find out there were these drums that were labeled "empty gasoline drums." People would be very careless with them. They assume they're empty. But they're not empty. They'll have vapors in them that are very flammable and so on and so forth and that led to their mishandling which started the fire. Another one, I remember there was a time where he talked about how there was this pool of water where they would sometimes dump flammable liquids and things. And they would be a vapor there and someone was there smoking a cigarette and then they threw the match in the water, think it would put it out. Instead, it lit the whole thing on fire and ...
Joel Bowman:
The exact opposite, unintended consequences.
Christopher Mayer:
Yeah. So his point was you, if you label these things differently, we would actually think differently about them. If you didn't say they were empty gasoline drums, you called them something else, people would behave differently. That's a slightly different point than what you're making, but I mean, it's so endlessly fascinating, because you can go on about this forever. But part of this book too, is there's a lot of little helpers and things. I know just from studying general semantics, to give you one example, there's this whole thing about being mindful of absolutes. So when people say things like "always" and "never." Anytime I hear people use those, it's like a little light goes on in my mind. You have to be careful of that. So you get suspicious of certain words and it can help you ask questions, follow up questions. Like somebody will say, "Well, these immigrants are all thieves. And you'll be like, really? "All" of them?
Joel Bowman:
Mergers and acquisitions are "always" a bad idea.
Christopher Mayer:
Exactly. They're "all" terrible. "All" of them? Every single one? So there are little clues like that, words that will perk up. And as an investor, that's important because I spend a lot of time talking to people and asking questions and trying to parse their answers.
Joel Bowman:
We've never lost shareholders' investments. Never? Interesting. Yeah. All right, Chris, tell us where we can get your book here, it's Dear Fellow Time Bender. I'm assuming it's on Amazon. Anywhere else in particular?
Christopher Mayer:
Yes. It's not very expensive. It's 12 bucks. It's 150 pages. I think it'll be a fun read for people who like to think about these kinds of ideas. Yeah, Amazon and fine bookstores everywhere as people like to say, right?
Joel Bowman:
Fine bookstores.
Christopher Mayer:
And the Institute of General Semantics, they sell it as well, so you can Google that. You won't have any problem finding it. And I don't get any proceeds, by the way. I don't get any royalties or anything. It's done for the Institute, so all proceeds goes toward them.
Joel Bowman:
Okay. I'll include a link to Chris's book (SEE HERE) and the others that we've spoken about here, Deals from Hell and Rousseau's Reveries, the very last book of his life. We didn't even get into talking more about his other particular ideas about some very interesting things. I think mostly people tend to focus on, as you said, his political persuasions, the Social Contract and that kind of stuff, but his works reward a whole summer of study at the very least.
Christopher Mayer:
I think so. I think if I had to sum up the big idea from that book, I'd say it was his idea that people were naturally happy, but they become unhappy by comparing themselves to other people and focusing too much on external things.
Joel Bowman:
Hell is other people, as Sartre said, if you let yourself only exist in other people's opinions. Okay, Chris, I feel like we could go on for quite a bit longer, going through your bookshelves and mine, but let's leave it there and we'll pick it up again next time.
Christopher Mayer:
Yep. Thanks, Joel
Joel Bowman:
Thanks a lot, Chris. I really appreciate it. And for listeners, again, please head over to the Substack page. You can get plenty of research reports, columns from Bill Bonner, Dan Danning, Tom Dyson and myself, and many more conversations like this, including the ones I referred to, our past conversations with Chris Mayer, where we noodle through more of his extended archives. And with that, we'll be back next week. Thanks a lot.
Chris Mayer talks Deals from Hell, Reveries with Rousseau and his own take on General Semantics